Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 66

Thread: Mired in Monotony: Seven Teams in a Rut (Raptors Included)

  1. #1
    Administrator Dr. James Naismith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Almonte
    Posts
    4,294
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default Mired in Monotony: Seven Teams in a Rut (Raptors Included)

    Good read courtesy of Jonathan Hartzell from NBA.com

    There are very few ways to build a championship contender in the NBA and they’re all centered around obtaining a superstar.

    Option 1: Sign an already established superstar through free agency (the Miami Heat model)

    Option 2: Use young talent and Draft picks to trade for a superstar (the Boston Celtics model)

    Option 3: Draft well and stockpile young talent in hopes they develop into superstars (the San Antonio Spurs model)

    The first option is usually only available to organizations in major markets that have the appeal to attract superstars. So for non-major market teams, the more feasible option is to acquire young talent and high Draft picks and hope one of those players turns into a star. But this route requires a lot of luck and usually a lot of losing for cities that usually can’t afford such a steep decline. It’s a tough but necessary route.

    Organizations find themselves stagnated in obscurity when they fail to get lucky in the lottery or they spend their money unwisely. It’s an unfortunate place to be and it’s where seven teams find themselves going into this season. They’re not bad enough to get better and not good enough to matter.

    Let’s breakdown how each of these teams got here and what their plans seem to be moving forward.

    Toronto Raptors

    Winning percentages, last five seasons (2008-13): .402, .488, .268, .348, .415

    Biggest mistake, last five seasons: Signing Hedo Turkoglu to a 5-year/$53 million contract in 2009.

    Past: The Raptors have experienced some of the NBA’s longest stagnation this century as they have not advanced past the first round of the playoffs since 2000-01 and they’ve only been over .500 once in the past ten seasons. They botched their chance to obtain relevancy when they drafted Andrea Bargnani No. 1 overall in the 2007 NBA Draft. Bargnani never developed into the elite offensive center the team imagined and Toronto recently unloaded Bargnani on the New York Knicks for a package centered around sharp-shooter Steve Novak. Last season, the team dug their heels deeper into the middle of the road when they acquired Rudy Gay. This move made the team better, but nowhere near championship caliber and Toronto found itself again on the playoff fringe.

    Future: The Raptors are now under the control of former Denver Nuggets GM Masai Ujiri and some of his moves this summer signal a new direction for the organization. This must be a welcome sign for Toronto fans who haven’t had much to cheer for in a while. But it most likely won’t be a quick turnaround with the amount of bad contracts the team still has on the books.
    Source - Click here

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic Rookie GoldenBaller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    New Brunswick
    Posts
    151
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Yeah, sure they're bad, and they've been bad. But I don't think they're as bad as all the anylysis say. I'm not sure if it's because I'm a Raptors fan or not. It probably is. Either way, with Colangelo out and Ujiri in, there's nowhere to go but up from here.

  3. Like Bankertuck liked this post
  4. #3
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    6,888
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    When i think of the term "mediocre" the first team that comes to mind is the raps, so yeah id say the article is pretty spot on.
    @jerboat

  5. Like iblastoff, Axel liked this post
  6. #4
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I'm generally in agreement with this peice.

    But he still managed to make that one comment I hear time and time again that really bothers me:

    fail to get lucky
    First off it gives so little credit to the scouts and decision makers who have nailed these picks. It also removes the bad decision thats been made by decision makers and scouts from the equation. Just because selections over time aren't perfect, we shouldn't pretend that the draft is just a wild shot in the dark. There is a very clear and obvious decrease in the value of players with each lower draft spot.


    Secondly, what form of building a contender doesn't involve luck and how much luck is needed compared to something else? I'll call this 'relative luck'.

    He makes note that you have to be a major market to sign a superstar as a UFA (something I've agreed with many times), so assuming thats true we'll call that a 0% chance. So lets pretend drafting a superstar is extremely unlikely, we'll call that a 0.1% chance. Well here is the thing: 0.1 > 0. So the idea that drafting a superstar is 'lucky' may or may not be true, but it is relatively less lucky than an impossible/improbable chance.

    Now thats just an example and we don't really want to compare against something thats improbable anyways. So lets compare against Option 2:

    Option 2: Use young talent and Draft picks to trade for a superstar (the Boston Celtics model)
    We need to get some sort of idea of how often this happens (even if we can't necessarily map it easily statistically). Since, and including, Boston we've seen KG, Harden, Melo, Paul, Deron and Dwight being trade while still under contract. Of that list Melo, Paul and Dwight were all available for UFA that coming year, requested (demanded) a trade and controlled where they would land (they had to approve the move for it to happen). They landed in NY, LA and LA respectively - not suprisingly major markets. I think its reasonable to plop them into the 'Option 1' category.

    This leaves us KG, Deron and Harden. KG's situation was similar to those mentioned above. He had an ETO to his contract - however, there is little to indicate he would have used it. But either the threat of that ETO (UFA after), or Minnesota's willingness to rebuild and work with him, left KG controlling his trade destiny.

    Deron Williams trade was rather abrupt and shrouded in a bit of mystery. Jerry Sloan had just been fired a month or two before, and it was assumed to be due to Deron himself.

    The Harden deal is perhaps the only one that has taken place outside the control of the player itself (although Deron may also fit here aswell).

    So thats 1 or 2 superstars who have been traded without the superstar themselves controlling the deal (ie. chosing the destination) in the last 6 years.

    (worth noting aswell - they ended up in NY and Houston, two major markets again).

    So if we take a step back and look at the 'collect assets and trade for a superstar' build, we also see it is extremely rare. Most reasonably 2 events (3 if being very generous, 1 if not being generous).

    To make a broad comparison, 'superstars' drafted in the top 5 since 2007.

    Durant, Rose, Westbrook, Love, Griffin, Harden, Irving, (maybe) Davis

    Now I'm sure people will pick and choose names above that aren't superstars and thats fine if they choose to do so. But I think there are enough names on that list that its reasonable to believe drafting a superstar is relatively less lucky than trading for one.

    This to me is no small point, and very bothersome when I see people discussing team building. Calling the opportunity of drafting a superstar as 'luck', makes it sound like teams have no, or little, control. But if have no other choice, are you going to play black jack where you can have some level of control over the odds or are you going to go straight to the slot machine?

  7. #5
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,304
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Haven't been past the first round since 2001, and yet fans are up in arms if anyone mentions blowing it up

  8. Like ebrian, planetmars, mcHAPPY, Nilanka, Axel liked this post
  9. #6
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    6,658
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Haven't been past the first round since 2001, and yet fans are up in arms if anyone mentions blowing it up
    lol, perspective is always appreciated.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  10. #7
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    2,143
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Haven't been past the first round since 2001, and yet fans are up in arms if anyone mentions blowing it up
    How would you blow it up?

  11. #8
    Raptors Republic Superstar Hotshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,551
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Biggest mistake, last five seasons:Signing Hedo Turkoglu to a 5-year/$53 million contract in 2009
    no not Hedo because we were able to fix that mistake within a year, the biggest mistake was gambling with Chris Bosh free agency and let him walk for nothing.

  12. Like Mapko, Michel G, octothorp, planetmars, Sheptor liked this post
  13. #9
    Raptors Republic Rookie Sheptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    The Rock
    Posts
    55
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Hotshot wrote: View Post
    no not Hedo because we were able to fix that mistake within a year, the biggest mistake was gambling with Chris Bosh free agency and let him walk for nothing.
    I would also say the return on Vince would have to be up there for colossal fuck-ups.

  14. Like Mapko liked this post
  15. #10
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,870
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    The creation of the franchise! Rofl

  16. #11
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    20,670
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    How would you blow it up?
    I applaud RR for not replying to this.

    There are only 1,618 threads on this topic.
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

  17. Like isaacthompson, magoon liked this post
  18. #12
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Hamilton,ON a.k.a. The Hammer!
    Posts
    5,331
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    how would you blow it up?
    tnt
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  19. #13
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    1,865
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Somewhat related...does anyone get that déjà vu feeling with Portland? Trying to build around a 20-10 power forward in the hopes of keeping him from leaving in free agency next year? Let's see if they learn from our mistakes. Likely not

  20. #14
    Raptors Republic Rookie swingman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    153
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    Somewhat related...does anyone get that déjà vu feeling with Portland? Trying to build around a 20-10 power forward in the hopes of keeping him from leaving in free agency next year? Let's see if they learn from our mistakes. Likely not
    That said, Portland has other solid players and a decent coach. A team left to Lillard/Batum is better than one left to Jose/DD

  21. #15
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    39
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Also worth mentioning is that two two of the options are based around quality drafts, ideally with multiple picks over several years.

    Drafting a star (and as many sidekicks as possible) and using picks and players to "aquire" one are both based around being out of the playoffs (on purpose folks, not like the Raptors who try every trick in the book to make it and still miss, acquiring useless picks, that they still screw up, T Ross vs Drummond...) for multiple years.

    I know it's hard but we just can't have it both ways, all the people arguing over whether to tank and/or "blowing it up" need to take a breath and realize what the ENTIRE basketball world already knows... We are stuck in mediocre( and that is being extremely kind) for no other reason than our ridiculous half assed attempts at sneaking into the post season and being jobbed by our own management... Figure out what your priorities are; building a championship with bonefied stars or rolling along "stuck in a rut" with Andrea and Hedo ...

  22. Like Fully liked this post
  23. #16
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    39
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    In fact the Ross draft pick is exactly what we need to reverse if we want to follow one of those styles of building a good team

    We took Ross in order to fill a need with his percieved ability to shoot threes and defend. This was to fit into our our short sighted plan to get better year over year and to try and make it into the last playoff spot type mentality. If we were smart we would have taken Drummond who had far more obvious value regardless of Val and how they fit together because we could eventually use one in a trade to aquire an actual star player, preferably before he signs a 20 million per year deal a la Harden to Houston

    That is just one more, now looking massive, mistake that was based on some silly "plan" that didnt pay off...again

  24. Like Fully liked this post
  25. #17
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto, ON
    Posts
    763
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote aaron.in.toronto wrote: View Post
    In fact the Ross draft pick is exactly what we need to reverse if we want to follow one of those styles of building a good team

    We took Ross in order to fill a need with his percieved ability to shoot threes and defend. This was to fit into our our short sighted plan to get better year over year and to try and make it into the last playoff spot type mentality. If we were smart we would have taken Drummond who had far more obvious value regardless of Val and how they fit together because we could eventually use one in a trade to aquire an actual star player, preferably before he signs a 20 million per year deal a la Harden to Houston

    That is just one more, now looking massive, mistake that was based on some silly "plan" that didnt pay off...again
    Exactly! That is what many posters don't understand. It doesn't matter if we blow it up or not. If we take someone like Ross over someone like Drummond.....we will continue to be shitty (some here call it mediocre).....

    Everytime i hear the "We had JV" stupidity, it makes me shudder. This is the mistake that was made. Simple! A Talent like Ross can be replaced by a Cory Brewer or Danny Green or someone else....a talent like Drummond may go on to dominate on the glass and defensively WHILE dunking any and everything around the basket.

  26. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote aaron.in.toronto wrote: View Post
    Drafting a star (and as many sidekicks as possible) and using picks and players to "aquire" one are both based around being out of the playoffs (on purpose folks, not like the Raptors who try every trick in the book to make it and still miss, acquiring useless picks, that they still screw up, T Ross vs Drummond...) for multiple years.
    I hadn't realized the 07 Celtics were losing on purpose with 24M tied into Wally Z and Theo Ratliff, if Pierce doesn't miss half the season they're in 8th-10th place in the East. Ditto for the Rockets, who kept finishing just outside or just inside the playoffs.

  27. #19
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,119
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I hadn't realized the 07 Celtics were losing on purpose with 24M tied into Wally Z and Theo Ratliff, if Pierce doesn't miss half the season they're in 8th-10th place in the East. Ditto for the Rockets, who kept finishing just outside or just inside the playoffs.
    You mean the Ratliff who played a total of 44 minutes that year for Boston, and a Wally Szczerbiak who was one of the costs to make things work in a deal for first round pick from Minny?

    Yeah, they were losing on purpose.

  28. Like Fully liked this post
  29. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    You mean the Ratliff who played a total of 44 minutes that year for Boston, and a Wally Szczerbiak who was one of the costs to make things work in a deal for first round pick from Minny?

    Yeah, they were losing on purpose.
    If their plan that season was to lose and rebuild then why did they trade the #7 pick on draft night for one of the best defensive bigs in the league at the time in Ratliff? I'm confused...

    Why did they trade a bunch of young and crappy players for Wally Z who was averaging close to 20ppg at the time?

    The Celtics lost by accident that year due to injuries.
    Last edited by Xixak; Tue Aug 13th, 2013 at 11:01 AM.

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •