Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 66

Thread: Mired in Monotony: Seven Teams in a Rut (Raptors Included)

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,120
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    If their plan that season was to lose and rebuild then why did they trade the #7 pick on draft night for one of the best defensive bigs in the league at the time in Ratliff? I'm confused...

    Why did they trade a bunch of young and crappy players for Wally Z who was averaging close to 20ppg at the time?

    The Celtics lost by accident that year due to injuries.
    You are confused because you are convincing yourself that somehow these guys were (or would have) helped the Celtics win games. Why though I really don't know. I doubt anyone will convince you otherwise at this point

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,343
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Exactly! That is what many posters don't understand. It doesn't matter if we blow it up or not. If we take someone like Ross over someone like Drummond.....we will continue to be shitty (some here call it mediocre).....

    Everytime i hear the "We had JV" stupidity, it makes me shudder. This is the mistake that was made. Simple! A Talent like Ross can be replaced by a Cory Brewer or Danny Green or someone else....a talent like Drummond may go on to dominate on the glass and defensively WHILE dunking any and everything around the basket.
    There is a reason why Drummond fell so hard in the draft. He had bust written all over him. How would you feel if Drummond turned into Thabeet or Alabi?

    He's working out for Detroit, but he definitely wasn't a sure thing anymore coming out of college.

    And Drummond needs a lot of development. Could the Raptors coaches give him time to develop when they want to also spend more time on JV? If they took him as an asset could they easily flip him if he didn't show his potential?

    Ross is not a difference maker and may turn into a bust as well.. but he was not a bad pick.. I can't think of anyone that was drafted after Drummond that is doing well. Maybe Henson but we already had Davis.

  3. Like Dino4life, p00ka liked this post
  4. #23
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    5,975
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    There is a reason why Drummond fell so hard in the draft. He had bust written all over him. How would you feel if Drummond turned into Thabeet or Alabi?

    He's working out for Detroit, but he definitely wasn't a sure thing anymore coming out of college.

    And Drummond needs a lot of development. Could the Raptors coaches give him time to develop when they want to also spend more time on JV? If they took him as an asset could they easily flip him if he didn't show his potential?

    Ross is not a difference maker and may turn into a bust as well.. but he was not a bad pick.. I can't think of anyone that was drafted after Drummond that is doing well. Maybe Henson but we already had Davis.
    In the minds of some, it's a foregone conclusion that Drummond is the next Howard, while Ross is the next Gerald Green.

    Odds are in 5 years, both players will be somewhat in the middle of the pack (neither studs, nor scrubs...but useful rotation players).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  5. Like p00ka liked this post
  6. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    There is a reason why Drummond fell so hard in the draft. He had bust written all over him. How would you feel if Drummond turned into Thabeet or Alabi?

    He's working out for Detroit, but he definitely wasn't a sure thing anymore coming out of college.

    And Drummond needs a lot of development. Could the Raptors coaches give him time to develop when they want to also spend more time on JV? If they took him as an asset could they easily flip him if he didn't show his potential?

    Ross is not a difference maker and may turn into a bust as well.. but he was not a bad pick.. I can't think of anyone that was drafted after Drummond that is doing well. Maybe Henson but we already had Davis.
    Stop.

    We reached on Ross, period end of story. Nobody had him going that high especially considering we already had DeMar at 2.

    http://nbadraft.net/2012mock_draft ----> Had us taking Drummond 8th. Ross going 14th

    http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2012/ ----> Had us taking Rivers 8th. Drummond going 9th, Ross 14th

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft...raft-version-8 ------> Ford has us taking Lillard at 8. Drummond going 6th. Ross 13th.


    Ross was considered a late lottery pick, we took him in the mid-lottery. Drummond was supposed to go anywhere from 6-9

  7. #25
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,343
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Stop.

    We reached on Ross, period end of story. Nobody had him going that high especially considering we already had DeMar at 2.

    http://nbadraft.net/2012mock_draft ----> Had us taking Drummond 8th. Ross going 14th

    http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2012/ ----> Had us taking Rivers 8th. Drummond going 9th, Ross 14th

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft...raft-version-8 ------> Ford has us taking Lillard at 8. Drummond going 6th. Ross 13th.


    Ross was considered a late lottery pick, we took him in the mid-lottery. Drummond was supposed to go anywhere from 6-9
    Right.. so Drummond was not really considered a top talent in the draft (6th best by those mock drafts does not make him elite). Imagine if the Raptors took Rivers? Now that would have been a laugher.

    So why was it such a horrible move for Toronto to take a guy they liked at 8 instead of a guy that had motivation issues? BC for all his faults drafted pretty well. May never have knocked one out of the park but was fairly close with his assessments.

    I don't think Drummond is going to be a franchise altering talent. He may not have had time to show his potential to turn him into an asset worthy of guys like Harden. Ross may not be as good and even though he was a safe pick, he was not a bad pick.. at least not yet.

  8. #26
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    5,975
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Not sure how valuable an exercise it is to reference mock drafts to current (still unproven) players. After all, one could argue that the mocks were all wrong and that Lillard should've been the consensus 1st pick.

    It's just too early to draw any conclusions on these young players.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  9. Like iblastoff, p00ka liked this post
  10. #27
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Right.. so Drummond was not really considered a top talent in the draft (6th best by those mock drafts does not make him elite). Imagine if the Raptors took Rivers? Now that would have been a laugher.

    So why was it such a horrible move for Toronto to take a guy they liked at 8 instead of a guy that had motivation issues? BC for all his faults drafted pretty well. May never have knocked one out of the park but was fairly close with his assessments.

    I don't think Drummond is going to be a franchise altering talent. He may not have had time to show his potential to turn him into an asset worthy of guys like Harden. Ross may not be as good and even though he was a safe pick, he was not a bad pick.. at least not yet.
    In every draft there are those players that become stars who are not considered sure-fire stars. You don't get these players by "playing it safe" you get them by gambling on potential. Yes sometimes you get burned and end up with a bust. But I'd prefer the chance of getting a star type player than drafting a guy like Ross who atm looks like his ceiling is Martell Webster.

  11. #28
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Not sure how valuable an exercise it is to reference mock drafts to current (still unproven) players. After all, one could argue that the mocks were all wrong and that Lillard should've been the consensus 1st pick.

    It's just too early to draw any conclusions on these young players.
    My bringing that up was in response to this

    There is a reason why Drummond fell so hard in the draft. He had bust written all over him. How would you feel if Drummond turned into Thabeet or Alabi?
    Drummond didn't fall hard and he didn't have bust written all over him. He was a top 10 pick and Ross wasn't. He was considered the better prospect at the time (same goes for Lamb and Rivers).

  12. #29
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    3,063
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Well it could have been worse imagine if we drafted Rivers.... Ross is t least tradeable.

  13. #30
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Well it could have been worse imagine if we drafted Rivers.... Ross is t least tradeable.
    This is true, although Rivers was looking a lot better towards the end of the season before he got hurt.

  14. #31
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    In every draft there are those players that become stars who are not considered sure-fire stars. You don't get these players by "playing it safe" you get them by gambling on potential. Yes sometimes you get burned and end up with a bust. But I'd prefer the chance of getting a star type player than drafting a guy like Ross who atm looks like his ceiling is Martell Webster.
    Picking Ross was the definition of "gambling on potential". Just saying.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  15. #32
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Picking Ross was the definition of "gambling on potential". Just saying.
    No it wasn't. The only reason we even picked him is because we were planning to go all in on Nash and wanted to add more athleticism and shooting to the roster.

  16. #33
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    5,975
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Drummond didn't fall hard and he didn't have bust written all over him. He was a top 10 pick and Ross wasn't. He was considered the better prospect at the time (same goes for Lamb and Rivers).
    Drummond was once considered a top-3 pick, so in that case, he did fall hard.

    But either way, mock drafts are just the opinions of Chad Ford, Alex Kennedy, etc. Who's to say they're opinions are more credible than Colangelo (who obviously had his own mock draft board)?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  17. Like planetmars liked this post
  18. #34
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    No it wasn't. The only reason we even picked him is because we were planning to go all in on Nash and wanted to add more athleticism and shooting to the roster.
    Still a gamble, by your own definition. He was roundly projected to go 5-10 picks lower than he actually went. Toronto gambled that he would be a legit 3-and-D threat. On that, the jury is most definitely still out.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  19. #35
    Raptors Republic All-Star
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    1,110
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    Still a gamble, by your own definition. He was roundly projected to go 5-10 picks lower than he actually went. Toronto gambled that he would be a legit 3-and-D threat. On that, the jury is most definitely still out.
    It definitely is. That having been said: if you could get Danny Green (and Toronto was basically hoping that Ross would become Danny Green) with a #8 pick, most of the time that's a no-brainer. Shit, if San Antonio had Ross he'd probably be Danny Green but better at this point!

    Drummond was widely considered as a risky pick at the time: it's why he slid to 9th. That doesn't mean teams were necessarily wrong to skip him because he turned out to be a smash - sometimes that happens, it's the draft. I think Toronto's pick of Ross was your classic "team hopes for best-case scenario" and since the best-case scenario in this instance was relatively modest (i.e. a Danny Green clone) they fooled themselves into thinking it was more likely or achievable.

  20. #36
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    It definitely is. That having been said: if you could get Danny Green (and Toronto was basically hoping that Ross would become Danny Green) with a #8 pick, most of the time that's a no-brainer. Shit, if San Antonio had Ross he'd probably be Danny Green but better at this point!

    Drummond was widely considered as a risky pick at the time: it's why he slid to 9th. That doesn't mean teams were necessarily wrong to skip him because he turned out to be a smash - sometimes that happens, it's the draft. I think Toronto's pick of Ross was your classic "team hopes for best-case scenario" and since the best-case scenario in this instance was relatively modest (i.e. a Danny Green clone) they fooled themselves into thinking it was more likely or achievable.
    Agreed. And Ross could still prove to be a capable Green-type player (not saying he will or won't, just that it's possible). Green was waived by the team that drafted him, and only hooked on with SA after proving himself in the D-league and Europe. He was also a 2nd-round pick, however, further proving the transient nature of quality/career potential in terms of where a player is drafted.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  21. #37
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,286
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    In every draft there are those players that become stars who are not considered sure-fire stars. You don't get these players by "playing it safe" you get them by gambling on potential. Yes sometimes you get burned and end up with a bust. But I'd prefer the chance of getting a star type player than drafting a guy like Ross who atm looks like his ceiling is Martell Webster.
    The problem is that by that logic, Rivers could have been the "right" pick just as much as Drummond. Some "experts" had Rivers listed as one of the top talents in the draft. Besides, who says picking Ross was "playing it safe"? Had DeRozan gotten injured early last season and Ross got the opportunity to get significant playing time with the team's best players, perhaps we'd be discussing him as a successful "gamble on potential" pick by BC. You can't judge these players after a single season, especially considering the extreme diversity of the situations they played in (ie: Lamb could become a stud in the next season or two, despite barely seeing the court last season). Save the burning desire for instant gratification to other endeavors.

  22. Like vino, p00ka liked this post
  23. #38
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,343
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    In every draft there are those players that become stars who are not considered sure-fire stars. You don't get these players by "playing it safe" you get them by gambling on potential. Yes sometimes you get burned and end up with a bust. But I'd prefer the chance of getting a star type player than drafting a guy like Ross who atm looks like his ceiling is Martell Webster.
    You should look at players who were rookies averaging just under 14 ppg / 36mins and see how good they are now. Who's to say that he doesn't end up like George, Granger or McGrady.

  24. #39
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    744
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    You should look at players who were rookies averaging just under 14 ppg / 36mins and see how good they are now. Who's to say that he doesn't end up like George, Granger or McGrady.
    Yeah except you're ignoring the fact that all of those guys shot the ball way better than Ross, got to the FT Line at a higher clip and contributed in other ways (like rebs and asts) more than Ross did. Additionally TMac was drafted out of high school.

    Also all of these guys showed a willingness and ability to attack the basket in their first season. Nearly half of Ross' shot attempts were from 3 and he basically never attacked the basket unless he was on the break.

  25. #40
    Raptors Republic Rookie Mundy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    113
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Drummond was once considered a top-3 pick, so in that case, he did fall hard.

    But either way, mock drafts are just the opinions of Chad Ford, Alex Kennedy, etc. Who's to say they're opinions are more credible than Colangelo (who obviously had his own mock draft board)?
    This is exactly it. I listened to a Bill Simmons podcast with Chad Ford a couple days before the draft (two guys I really like, albeit for different reasons) because I was so curious to see what they thought about Bennett..... and they literally didn't mention him in an hour and fifteen other than to lump him in with those "should be a top-6 pick" guys. There's a lot of things going on in those couple minutes before a name is called, and probably a lot of deals/plans that fall through.

    Now I'm not defending the Ross pick at all because although he has the makeup of a good player there was definitely a Ben Wallace-type right behind him. I'm not upset so much about missing out on Drummond because 7 other teams passed on him too. I just don't think Ross has shown anything that proves he was worth a gamble.

    ....but again, we've seen tons of complaints that Derozan was granted the starting position by default and it cost our team a bunch of wins in the early stages of his career. Ross has only been around one year, plenty of time yet to carve a niche.
    Last edited by Mundy; Tue Aug 13th, 2013 at 02:23 PM.
    "This just in........ THE RAPTORS ARE AMAZING!"

  26. Like Nilanka liked this post

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •