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Thread: Mired in Monotony: Seven Teams in a Rut (Raptors Included)

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Rookie vino's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Shit, if San Antonio had Ross he'd probably be Danny Green but better at this point!
    That's the most depressing part! TL talks about changing the culture/re-branding/do whatever - I truly hope for a quick (2-3 years?!) turn-around of this whole organization!

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Terrence Ross will play better with more talent around him.

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Terrence Ross will play better with more talent around him.
    So would DeRozan

    ...

    So would basically any player in the NBA...

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    So would DeRozan

    ...

    So would basically any player in the NBA...
    Relax all I'm saying is he is still able to be a productive player for this team.

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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Well it could have been worse imagine if we drafted Rivers.... Ross is t least tradeable.
    I still like Rivers better than Ross. If not for the huge logjam the Pelicans now have, Rivers is up for a good year.

    I don't see how Ross is any more valuable than Rivers at this point, especially when comparing the two in Vegas. And don't give me this bull about how summer league doesn't matter, because it does. Ross was supposed to show what he can do against lesser competition, and he didn't even play decent, let alone playing like a star.
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  6. #46
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    Default Bargnani and Colangelo are gone but not forgotten

    I think the biggest argument for the Raptors being "mired in monotony: stuck in a rut" is the foundation on which this team has been built.

    The roster was constructed around and for Bargnani by Colangelo.


    There has been a shit load of change to the coaches, front office, and 2nd/3rd string with 6 new players but at its core the guys with the big contracts are all Colangelo's guys.


    Colangelo constructed the team around a supposed 3pt shooter (but in reality last two years a long two point shooting) 7-footer with suspect team defensive skills and no rebounding skills. Break down the starters:

    PG - defense first (blaming injuries last year), high rebounding, punch-and-kick driver
    SG - poor 3pt shooter, slasher
    SF - good defender, good rebounder, another slasher, average 3pt (Fields then Gay)
    PF - *insert best possible Bargnani description here*
    C - space creating roller, rebounder, help defender



    So the monotony will likely continue until 1 of these outcomes happens:

    1) DD and Gay become average to really good 3pt shooters,
    2) Fire sale, tank brigade,
    3) A stretch four that fulfills what Bargnani was suppose to be is brought in (unless you thinK Novak and/or Daye is that guy).
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think the biggest argument for the Raptors being "mired in monotony: stuck in a rut" is the foundation on which this team has been built.

    The roster was constructed around and for Bargnani by Colangelo.


    There has been a shit load of change to the coaches, front office, and 2nd/3rd string with 6 new players but at its core the guys with the big contracts are all Colangelo's guys.


    Colangelo constructed the team around a supposed 3pt shooter (but in reality last two years a long two point shooting) 7-footer with suspect team defensive skills and no rebounding skills. Break down the starters:

    PG - defense first (blaming injuries last year), high rebounding, punch-and-kick driver
    SG - poor 3pt shooter, slasher
    SF - good defender, good rebounder, another slasher, average 3pt (Fields then Gay)
    PF - *insert best possible Bargnani description here*
    C - space creating roller, rebounder, help defender



    So the monotony will likely continue until 1 of these outcomes happens:

    1) DD and Gay become average to really good 3pt shooters,
    2) Fire sale, tank brigade,
    3) A stretch four that fulfills what Bargnani was suppose to be is brought in (unless you thinK Novak and/or Daye is that guy).
    KEVIN LOVE do your bidness Ujiri!

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think the biggest argument for the Raptors being "mired in monotony: stuck in a rut" is the foundation on which this team has been built.

    The roster was constructed around and for Bargnani by Colangelo.


    There has been a shit load of change to the coaches, front office, and 2nd/3rd string with 6 new players but at its core the guys with the big contracts are all Colangelo's guys.


    Colangelo constructed the team around a supposed 3pt shooter (but in reality last two years a long two point shooting) 7-footer with suspect team defensive skills and no rebounding skills. Break down the starters:

    PG - defense first (blaming injuries last year), high rebounding, punch-and-kick driver
    SG - poor 3pt shooter, slasher
    SF - good defender, good rebounder, another slasher, average 3pt (Fields then Gay)
    PF - *insert best possible Bargnani description here*
    C - space creating roller, rebounder, help defender



    So the monotony will likely continue until 1 of these outcomes happens:

    1) DD and Gay become average to really good 3pt shooters,
    2) Fire sale, tank brigade,
    3) A stretch four that fulfills what Bargnani was suppose to be is brought in (unless you thinK Novak and/or Daye is that guy).
    1) Is the most possible out come. I don't feel like they have to be great 3 point shooters. If DD is between .300-.350 and Rudy is between .350-.400 that would be enough.

    3) The most likely to develop into that type of player is Austin Daye. If his proven two things in his NBA career is that he can shoot the three and blocks shots. With the right role and the right trainer(Alex) he "could" be a pretty could stretch four.

  9. #49
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I applaud RR for not replying to this.
    I
    There are only 1,618 threads on this topic.
    I am tired of 'blow it up mentality'. Sometimes you have to play the cards you are dealt. It is easy to say 'blow it up'. It is much much harder to do when every other team knows your agenda. Realistic solutions often don't get us too excited, but, are dictated by contracts, salary cap and free agency. Though this is not a blow it up thread, Matt, I tire of this rhetoric.

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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    I am tired of 'blow it up mentality'. Sometimes you have to play the cards you are dealt. It is easy to say 'blow it up'. It is much much harder to do when every other team knows your agenda. Realistic solutions often don't get us too excited, but, are dictated by contracts, salary cap and free agency. Though this is not a blow it up thread, Matt, I tire of this rhetoric.
    I concur with this. I recognize that tanking is one solution, but that doesn't necessarily mean we have to go that route. Sometimes teams can build a contender simply by shuffling assets and striking when a star player comes along, or nabbing that perfectly fitting piece to complete the roster.

    Tbh I don't really have a full plan myself, and that's why I'm not the GM of the team. I trust that Ujiri knows what he's doing, tank or no tank.

  12. #51
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think the biggest argument for the Raptors being "mired in monotony: stuck in a rut" is the foundation on which this team has been built.

    The roster was constructed around and for Bargnani by Colangelo.


    There has been a shit load of change to the coaches, front office, and 2nd/3rd string with 6 new players but at its core the guys with the big contracts are all Colangelo's guys.


    Colangelo constructed the team around a supposed 3pt shooter (but in reality last two years a long two point shooting) 7-footer with suspect team defensive skills and no rebounding skills. Break down the starters:

    PG - defense first (blaming injuries last year), high rebounding, punch-and-kick driver
    SG - poor 3pt shooter, slasher
    SF - good defender, good rebounder, another slasher, average 3pt (Fields then Gay)
    PF - *insert best possible Bargnani description here*
    C - space creating roller, rebounder, help defender



    So the monotony will likely continue until 1 of these outcomes happens:

    1) DD and Gay become average to really good 3pt shooters,
    2) Fire sale, tank brigade,
    3) A stretch four that fulfills what Bargnani was suppose to be is brought in (unless you thinK Novak and/or Daye is that guy).
    BC is gone thankfully.
    In my view our best chance to break out of the rut is forJV to emerge , avoid injury and get more minutes. IF this happens there may be more open 3's and the percentages for DD and RG will have a chance to increase. Also AA will not be taking away oppurtunities for DD and RG.

  13. #52
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think the biggest argument for the Raptors being "mired in monotony: stuck in a rut" is the foundation on which this team has been built.

    The roster was constructed around and for Bargnani by Colangelo.


    There has been a shit load of change to the coaches, front office, and 2nd/3rd string with 6 new players but at its core the guys with the big contracts are all Colangelo's guys.


    Colangelo constructed the team around a supposed 3pt shooter (but in reality last two years a long two point shooting) 7-footer with suspect team defensive skills and no rebounding skills. Break down the starters:

    PG - defense first (blaming injuries last year), high rebounding, punch-and-kick driver
    SG - poor 3pt shooter, slasher
    SF - good defender, good rebounder, another slasher, average 3pt (Fields then Gay)
    PF - *insert best possible Bargnani description here*
    C - space creating roller, rebounder, help defender



    So the monotony will likely continue until 1 of these outcomes happens:

    1) DD and Gay become average to really good 3pt shooters,
    2) Fire sale, tank brigade,
    3) A stretch four that fulfills what Bargnani was suppose to be is brought in (unless you thinK Novak and/or Daye is that guy).
    Just my opinion, but I don't think either the first or third options work. Looking at the teams ahead of us in the East:
    Miami
    Chicago
    Brooklyn

    Just those teams alone have elite level talent that we can't compete with even if our wings improve their 3 point shooting or we get a stretch 4. The NBA is about elite talent and improving from within isn't enough to get you over the hump, unless the improvement is going from border line all star to all star or super star. I don't even know if options 1 or 3 make us better than the current Atlanta team.

    What I would love to see is us keep Gay and JV, whom are clearly our two best players and add to that a PG that can control the pace of he game like Rondo and surround those guys with 3 and D role players.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Aug 14th, 2013 at 12:52 PM. Reason: fixed quote

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    I'm not even sure how necessary 3+D is.

    Somehow Memphis got to the Western Conference Finals with only two starters who could consistently hit the 3... and neither of them were even hitting their 3s in the playoffs. Conley shot 28% and Prince shot 26%. Obviously Tony Allen, Z-Bo and Gasol aren't lights out three point shooters.

    I guess that's what an elite team defense can do for you. Memphis was dead last in the NBA in three pointers made per game at 4.7 this year also. Even the Raptors were much better than that (15th with 7 makes).

    Indiana also ranked below the Raptors in 3s made (slightly at 6.9) on a slightly higher percentage (34.7% compared to 34.3%). They also featured a lineup with only 2 guys that could hit the three with any consistency (Hill and George). I guess you could add Stephenson as well since he shot 33% on 2.4 attempts per game which isn't bad.
    Last edited by Xixak; Tue Aug 13th, 2013 at 11:29 PM.

  15. #54
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I'm not even sure how necessary 3+D is.

    Somehow Memphis got to the Western Conference Finals with only two starters who could consistently hit the 3... and neither of them were even hitting their 3s in the playoffs. Conley shot 28% and Prince shot 26%. Obviously Tony Allen, Z-Bo and Gasol aren't lights out three point shooters.

    I guess that's what an elite team defense can do for you. Memphis was dead last in the NBA in three pointers made per game at 4.7 this year also. Even the Raptors were much better than that (15th with 7 makes).

    Indiana also ranked below the Raptors in 3s made (slightly at 6.9) on a slightly higher percentage (34.7% compared to 34.3%). They also featured a lineup with only 2 guys that could hit the three with any consistency (Hill and George). I guess you could add Stephenson as well since he shot 33% on 2.4 attempts per game which isn't bad.
    Oh yes. This is what ticks me off. We aren't a great 3pt shooting team, but our defense is pretty bad. Really bad if you factor in that we have one of the most athletic starting-5's in the league. If DC can somehow manage to get the defense back on track this year, an emphasis on improving 3pt shooting will be slightly toned down. Although it's still nice to have it.
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    Oh yes. This is what ticks me off. We aren't a great 3pt shooting team, but our defense is pretty bad. Really bad if you factor in that we have one of the most athletic starting-5's in the league. If DC can somehow manage to get the defense back on track this year, an emphasis on improving 3pt shooting will be slightly toned down. Although it's still nice to have it.
    I don't really see why we can't be a top 10 or possibly even top 5 defense in the NBA... seriously. Casey was able to get a lineup of

    Calderon
    DeRozan
    James Johnson
    Bargnani
    Aaron Gray

    To be the 14th best defense in 2011-12. And then we had a monumental dropoff to 22nd last year. I just don't see how it isn't possible for this team to be top 10 defensively with significantly better defensive personnel than that 2011-12 team.

    Some people might say that it's because we ramped up the pace offensively... but we didn't. We became a much more efficient offensive team (went from 29th to 13th in oRTG), but our pace didn't really increase at all (25th to 24th).

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Also all of these guys showed a willingness and ability to attack the basket in their first season. Nearly half of Ross' shot attempts were from 3 and he basically never attacked the basket unless he was on the break.
    This is my frustration. Ross can jump very very quickly & very high -making it nearly impossible to block/defend. Yet, most of his shuts are 3s??????????????????

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    Quote Mapko wrote: View Post
    This is my frustration. Ross can jump very very quickly & very high -making it nearly impossible to block/defend. Yet, most of his shuts are 3s??????????????????
    I think his main problem is shying away from contact. He also doesn't really have very good handle. His first step is pretty damn quick but idk he's just not programmed to be a slasher. Would need to change his mentality entirely.

    Can anyone find any examples of guys who basically couldn't get to the FT line at all early in their careers but later figured it out and started getting there with regularity?

  19. #58
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I don't really see why we can't be a top 10 or possibly even top 5 defense in the NBA... seriously. Casey was able to get a lineup of

    Calderon
    DeRozan
    James Johnson
    Bargnani
    Aaron Gray

    To be the 14th best defense in 2011-12. And then we had a monumental dropoff to 22nd last year. I just don't see how it isn't possible for this team to be top 10 defensively with significantly better defensive personnel than that 2011-12 team.

    Some people might say that it's because we ramped up the pace offensively... but we didn't. We became a much more efficient offensive team (went from 29th to 13th in oRTG), but our pace didn't really increase at all (25th to 24th).
    I think there are a few reasons why there was a defensive relapse last year... JV being the primary center at least in the beginning of the season; Lowry gambling too much and not playing within the system; not having as many veteran guys like Magloire or Carter around; and having other teams being able to scout the team better. Toronto surprised teams in Casey's first year as they were probably accustomed to Triano ball for so many years.. last year they watched game film and realized what Toronto's D was all about and adjusted.

    Hopefully Casey and his new assistants have a better game plan going into next season. I don't believe they will be a top tier defensive team but it would be pretty awesome if they were.

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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    Oh yes. This is what ticks me off. We aren't a great 3pt shooting team, but our defense is pretty bad. Really bad if you factor in that we have one of the most athletic starting-5's in the league. If DC can somehow manage to get the defense back on track this year, an emphasis on improving 3pt shooting will be slightly toned down. Although it's still nice to have it.
    I agree re our 3point defence ....other teams too often get wide open looks after we chase good ball movement rather than staying at home in position. A lot of this problem falls on DC . We had the same problem under JT. The weakest defensive link JC is gone. I expect more from KL.

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    Quote Mapko wrote: View Post
    This is my frustration. Ross can jump very very quickly & very high -making it nearly impossible to block/defend. Yet, most of his shuts are 3s??????????????????
    I share your frustration .

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