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Thread: This Team Needs to Attack the Rim on Offense

  1. #81
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Actually we were 17-15 in the 32 games Gay started which rounds up to 44 wins in an 82 game season, but sure make stuff up to suit your point.

    In the meaningless stretch you referred to we played:

    Chicago (2x): Had 3 starters (Deng & Noah out), Butler and Boozer played over 40 minutes, pretty sure they were still trying to win since they only finished 1 game ahead of ATL. For the second game Deng was back (34 mins) and we beat them again. Valanciunas did not play in the 2nd game.

    Brooklyn: Nets missing G-Force, but aside from that fully healthy. We had 8 active players. No Ross or Val, Acy was the first guy off the bench.


    It was only really a meaningless last 2 games with Boston/Atlanta playing their starters less than 20 minutes.
    You certainly are a combative sort.

    I said the Raptors were .500 after the Rudy Gay trade and they were. I never mentioned anything about the games that Gay started or whatever, because it's a pointless extrapolation anyway that I was doing facetiously (which I thought was obvious but I digress). If you want to be technical about it, Gay has never played a full season so let's assume that he won't next year for the point of my forecast.

    As far as the streak to end the season..

    We played Chicago once with no Deng, Noah and Gibson (and Rose obviously). Malcolm Thomas played 26 minutes. He played 39 all year.

    We played Chicago again with no Noah, Gibson (and Rose). Nazi Mohammed played 43 minutes for them.

    Not going to say that Chicago wasn't trying because that's not how Thibs gets down in the least but if you're using those games as a measuring stick... Chicago clearly wasn't at full strength.

    We played Boston and Atlanta when they were clearly not interested in winning.

    We played Washington and Minnesota when they were jostling for lottery position.

    We played Brooklyn and legitimately beat them.
    Last edited by Fully; Thu Aug 15th, 2013 at 02:26 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Good lord. Follow a rebuttal to Dick & Jane level logic, with yet more of it. I'm not going to get into all the differences, but:
    - You don't think Jonas will be much better than his rookie year?
    - You don't think Ross will be better than his rookie year?
    - You don't think Acy will be better?
    - You don't think DeMar's work will bring more improvements?
    - You don't think Bargs departure will make a positive difference? Were you campaigning for him to be kept, or campaigning that his departure would be addition by subtraction?
    - You don't think Novak's 3 pt shooting changes a thing?
    - You don't think Psycho T makes our front line a lot tougher?
    - You don't think Fields can be much more effective with his nerve damage fixed?
    - You don't think work over the summer, plus training camp with his new team will make any difference at all with Gay?
    - You don't think Casey being given free reins, and not constrained by BC makes a difference?

    I disagree with all of those. It remains to be seen what difference all of these things will make, but to keep chanting this "34 win team" refrain is nothing short of kindergarten logic.
    You've got me again.

    No other team in the East - especially not the ones like Washington, Cleveland, and Detroit who we'll be directly competing with for the playoffs - made any improvements in the offseason, have young talent in their own right who will be improving, or have players on their roster who were motivated to get better this summer.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    You certainly are a combative sort.
    lol, wouldn't you love to have him on your side of a pick-up game at the Y? Regardless of skills, I would.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Good lord. Follow a rebuttal to Dick & Jane level logic, with yet more of it. I'm not going to get into all the differences, but:
    - You don't think Jonas will be much better than his rookie year?
    - You don't think Ross will be better than his rookie year?
    - You don't think Acy will be better?
    - You don't think DeMar's work will bring more improvements?
    - You don't think Bargs departure will make a positive difference? Were you campaigning for him to be kept, or campaigning that his departure would be addition by subtraction?
    - You don't think Novak's 3 pt shooting changes a thing?
    - You don't think Psycho T makes our front line a lot tougher?
    - You don't think Fields can be much more effective with his nerve damage fixed?
    - You don't think work over the summer, plus training camp with his new team will make any difference at all with Gay?
    - You don't think Casey being given free reins, and not constrained by BC makes a difference?

    I disagree with all of those. It remains to be seen what difference all of these things will make, but to keep chanting this "34 win team" refrain is nothing short of kindergarten logic.
    I'll bite:

    - I think Jonas will be better. I don't know how much, like you, but I expect he will be one of the top-3 players on the team on both ends by December.
    - I think Ross will be better, but probably only marginally, unless Derozan is moved and he gets a lot more PT. I certainly don't think he'll be a significant contributor to wins.
    - I don't think Acy will be a factor at all. I hope I'm wrong; I historically love all these 'grit/grind' guys like Popeye, Reggie, etc. But I don't hold out hope that he's any kind of difference-maker this year.
    - I think Demar will improve slightly, but not enough in the areas we need him to (3s, defense).
    - I think Bargs' departure effect is already done. On the floor, no, I don't think it will have a marked positive effect.
    - I don't think Nvak's shooting changes a thing. I don't think he plays more than 10 minutes a game with the current roster.
    - I think the addition of Hansbrough was a great one, and I think it will make a difference. But not the kind of difference I think you see.
    - I don't know what to think about Fields. If he is better, he will make a big difference; in fact, all things being equal, I think Fields is the biggest x-factor on the team.
    - I don't think Gay will be any different, in terms of production and contribution to wins, than he has been so far in his career. And I don't think the eye surgery is a factor other than to indicate he was content to go without fixing it for the 1st 7 years of his career, which I don't see as a particularly strong character trait.
    - I think Casey will get this team back to playing better defensive ball. I don't know what that means for the offense.

    This is the departure point for the two sides. Neither side is willing to entertain, it seems, the idea that their prognostication is any more susceptible to risk than the other side. I would add, however, that the 'anti-tank' side is MUCH more optimistic, bordering on, shall we say, 'fanatical', than anyone else out there -- 'pro-tank' posters, sports media, the Raptors front office, etc.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    You've got me again.

    No other team in the East - especially not the ones like Washington, Cleveland, and Detroit who we'll be directly competing with for the playoffs - made any improvements in the offseason, have young talent in their own right who will be improving, or have players on their roster who were motivated to get better this summer.
    These things always turn into straw man arguments. I never said, nor even implied, anything thing of the sort. My objection is to calling them a "34 win team". Can you say that those teams' improvements make the Raps a "34 win team"? How so?

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Good lord. Follow a rebuttal to Dick & Jane level logic, with yet more of it. I'm not going to get into all the differences, but:
    - You don't think Jonas will be much better than his rookie year?
    - You don't think Ross will be better than his rookie year?
    - You don't think Acy will be better?
    - You don't think DeMar's work will bring more improvements?
    - You don't think Bargs departure will make a positive difference? Were you campaigning for him to be kept, or campaigning that his departure would be addition by subtraction?
    - You don't think Novak's 3 pt shooting changes a thing?
    - You don't think Psycho T makes our front line a lot tougher?
    - You don't think Fields can be much more effective with his nerve damage fixed?
    - You don't think work over the summer, plus training camp with his new team will make any difference at all with Gay?
    - You don't think Casey being given free reins, and not constrained by BC makes a difference?

    I disagree with all of those. It remains to be seen what difference all of these things will make, but to keep chanting this "34 win team" refrain is nothing short of kindergarten logic.
    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    You've got me again.

    No other team in the East - especially not the ones like Washington, Cleveland, and Detroit who we'll be directly competing with for the playoffs - made any improvements in the offseason, have young talent in their own right who will be improving, or have players on their roster who were motivated to get better this summer.
    Personally, I think it is a wash.

    Toronto will likely make improvements in some of the areas p00ka noted (not all) but Fully has a point on other teams also improving.

    It is likely a wash because some teams improved (Washington, Cleveland, Detroit, Charlotte) while others took a step back (Milwaukee, Philly, Boston) with others still up in the air (Atlanta).

    What is likely to be in Toronto's advantage is they'll have 8 games that SHOULD be easier versus Boston and Philly.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Aug 15th, 2013 at 02:39 PM.
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    I'll bite:

    - I think Jonas will be better. I don't know how much, like you, but I expect he will be one of the top-3 players on the team on both ends by December.
    - I think Ross will be better, but probably only marginally, unless Derozan is moved and he gets a lot more PT. I certainly don't think he'll be a significant contributor to wins.
    - I don't think Acy will be a factor at all. I hope I'm wrong; I historically love all these 'grit/grind' guys like Popeye, Reggie, etc. But I don't hold out hope that he's any kind of difference-maker this year.
    - I think Demar will improve slightly, but not enough in the areas we need him to (3s, defense).
    - I think Bargs' departure effect is already done. On the floor, no, I don't think it will have a marked positive effect.
    - I don't think Nvak's shooting changes a thing. I don't think he plays more than 10 minutes a game with the current roster.
    - I think the addition of Hansbrough was a great one, and I think it will make a difference. But not the kind of difference I think you see.
    - I don't know what to think about Fields. If he is better, he will make a big difference; in fact, all things being equal, I think Fields is the biggest x-factor on the team.
    - I don't think Gay will be any different, in terms of production and contribution to wins, than he has been so far in his career. And I don't think the eye surgery is a factor other than to indicate he was content to go without fixing it for the 1st 7 years of his career, which I don't see as a particularly strong character trait.
    - I think Casey will get this team back to playing better defensive ball. I don't know what that means for the offense.

    This is the departure point for the two sides. Neither side is willing to entertain, it seems, the idea that their prognostication is any more susceptible to risk than the other side. I would add, however, that the 'anti-tank' side is MUCH more optimistic, bordering on, shall we say, 'fanatical', than anyone else out there -- 'pro-tank' posters, sports media, the Raptors front office, etc.
    So, we may have different opinions on how much of a difference this or that will have. Nothing wrong with that, however this particular discussion is about referring to the Raptors as "a 34 win team", disregarding any difference (of which there are many) between last year's insanely ever changing multiple line-up to the team entering the coming year. I just hate this simplistic "34 win team" refrain being used. For the last time, I hope, It's Dick & Jane logic.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    So, we may have different opinions on how much of a difference this or that will have. Nothing wrong with that, however this particular discussion is about referring to the Raptors as "a 34 win team", disregarding any difference (of which there are many) between last year's insanely ever changing multiple line-up to the team entering the coming year. I just hate this simplistic "34 win team" refrain being used. For the last time, I hope, It's Dick & Jane logic.
    Yes, there will be many "differences" between this year's team and last year's team. Of course there will. I don't think it's ncessarily simplistic logic, though, to say that -- given that those differences will probably include both negative and positive things, and given that the roster itself is very similar in makeup -- this year's team is just as likely to have a record similar to last year as they are likely to improve significantly.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    I would pretty much agree with jimmie's analysis above.

    I have two basic issues with the suppositions pooka listed. The first is that many of them are premised on guys improving their productivity and any time you are relying on that to happen for several players on a team you are bound to be disappointed. The second is that even if many of these suppositions are true, I don't believe that they will have a material impact on the team. Will Ross get better? He can hardly be worse but what impact will he have? Same with Acy. Same with Fields, Hansbrough, Novak.

    The other point I would make is that if one truly believe that all or most or even some of these predictions will come to pass, then you can't hedge by predicting 35-41 wins. That simply doesn't make sense. The team won 34 games last year. Surely these improvements don't mean a mere 4-6 wins? You can't make the case that people are undervaluing this roster by arguing that the team is going to make a dozen improvements and win only a handful more games. It seems to me that if you want to make a case this roster is worth keeping together, you can't at the same time have a best case scenario of an 8th seed.

    EDIT: I should say, given the tenor of the boards recently, I'm not referring to anyone in particular in my second paragraph. But if you're going to go tooth and nail at it for two months over this roster, don't swing by in October and predict fewer wins than those of us who think the roster is a mess.
    Last edited by slaw; Thu Aug 15th, 2013 at 02:57 PM.

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    So, we may have different opinions on how much of a difference this or that will have. Nothing wrong with that, however this particular discussion is about referring to the Raptors as "a 34 win team", disregarding any difference (of which there are many) between last year's insanely ever changing multiple line-up to the team entering the coming year. I just hate this simplistic "34 win team" refrain being used. For the last time, I hope, It's Dick & Jane logic.
    I view the Raptors as a '34 win team' because that's how many games they won last season.

    Yes some changes have been made, ideally some of which will help improve the team. Yes, given so many young players and new players added after last season's training camp, there should be some organic growth to help improve the team.

    However, we have no idea whether all the changes to the Raptors will result in them being a better, equal or worse team than last year. We also have no idea how their changes will stack-up against the changes that other teams have made, relative to one another. We also have no idea what additional moves will be made to any rosters - via trade, injury, signing, etc... - between now and the end of next season.

    The bottom line is, until the games are played, any assumption as to what record the team will have next season is a complete guess. Obvious, I know. From my perspective, the Raptors are a '34 win team' until proven otherwise, for better or worse. I'm really not sure how anybody could claim anything differently, objectively speaking.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Aug 15th, 2013 at 03:26 PM.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I view the Raptors as a '34 win team' because that's how many games they won last season.

    Yes some changes have been made, ideally some of which will help improve the team. Yes, given so many young players and new players added after last season's training camp, there should be some organic growth to help improve the team.

    However, we have no idea whether all the changes to the Raptors will result in them being a better, equal or worse team than last year. We also have no idea how their changes will stack-up against the changes that other teams have made, relative to one another. We also have no idea what additional moves will be made to any rosters - via trade, injury, signing, etc... - between now and the end of next season.

    The bottom line is, until the games are played, any assumption as to what record the team will have next season is a complete guess. Obvious, I know. From my perspective, the Raptors are a '34 win team' until proven otherwise, for better or worse. I'm really not sure how anybody could claim anything differently, objectively speaking.
    First bold: I'm not sure how you define organic growth, but by my definition, my list presents more than that.

    Second bold: Exactly! So what's the value or purpose in referring to them as last year's team? Despite whatever knowledge of the game, and these players, any of us thinks we have, we don't know how the improved skills of some, the new blood of others, Casey's new found freedom, and the chemistry of these guys is going to work. But the point being that there's enough difference between this team entering this coming season, from the team that spent the vast majority of time on the floor last year, that using the "34 win team" description is lazy rhetorical nonsense, imo.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Honestly, I think you're getting really worked up about nothing. I called them a 34 win team because they were a team that won 34 games last year. I could have described them in a dozen different ways - mediocre, average, pedestrian, etc - the point I was trying to make is that they're not very good (and their record until proven otherwise backs that up).

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    Whatever turns your crank.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    First bold: I'm not sure how you define organic growth, but by my definition, my list presents more than that.

    Second bold: Exactly! So what's the value or purpose in referring to them as last year's team? Despite whatever knowledge of the game, and these players, any of us thinks we have, we don't know how the improved skills of some, the new blood of others, Casey's new found freedom, and the chemistry of these guys is going to work. But the point being that there's enough difference between this team entering this coming season, from the team that spent the vast majority of time on the floor last year, that using the "34 win team" description is lazy rhetorical nonsense, imo.
    I consider "organic growth" to be any internal improvement of the current team, whether by individual player development, improved team chemistry, different systems (ie: coaching), etc... I also mentioned the additions to the team, which I thought captured all the points you mentioned.

    I guess for me, it's like a student. If a kid has been a C-D student for several years, but decides to change his attitude and dedicate himself to his studies, he's still a "C-D student' until he actually posts better grades. It doesn't matter that his parents hired a tutor over the summer, or that he's approaching the new school year as a different kid... until the posted results prove otherwise, he'll still be considered to be that same "C-D student". As the saying goes, the proof is in the pudding.

    The one thing I will point out is that your inital post and your reply to me all seem to take the 'best case' internal Raptors scenarios into account, but don't seem to account for the relative improvement of other similar bubble teams. In the case of my example, the ability to improve grades rests entirely on the student. In the NBA, even if all your points do come to fruition for the Raptors, that may still prove to be insufficient to reach the level of the teams that finished above them last season and/or to maintain their advantage over the teams they finished ahead of last year (if the changes/improvements those other teams made this offseason result in a greater net improvement than the positive changes/improvements the Raptors hope to have undergone).
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Aug 15th, 2013 at 04:27 PM.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Honestly, I think you're getting really worked up about nothing. I called them a 34 win team because they were a team that won 34 games last year. I could have described them in a dozen different ways - mediocre, average, pedestrian, etc - the point I was trying to make is that they're not very good (and their record until proven otherwise backs that up).
    I already mentioned to him that you were referring to last year, and instead of just quoting that and saying "yes this is what I was referring to", you decided to continue the argument. Not really a surprise coming from you though.

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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    This year's team is just as likely to have a record similar to last year as they are likely to improve significantly.
    Since the team had a winning record after Gay's arrival, a .500 record for the whole season would be great. I definitely think it is within reach, given the strong core and improved role players.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Personally, I think it is a wash.

    Toronto will likely make improvements in some of the areas p00ka noted (not all) but Fully has a point on other teams also improving.

    It is likely a wash because some teams improved (Washington, Cleveland, Detroit, Charlotte) while others took a step back (Milwaukee, Philly, Boston) with others still up in the air (Atlanta).

    What is likely to be in Toronto's advantage is they'll have 8 games that SHOULD be easier versus Boston and Philly.
    Games they must win.....vs Brooklyn likely 1-3 vs New York 2-2 so if can go 6-2 vs Bos and Philly they put themselves in position to make playoffs .

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Having moved from virtual sea level to same elevation as Denver, I can vouch for the effects. There is no question in my mind that it gives the Nuggets an advantage in home games. And many do forget it. That being said, the topic was TALENT, not how many wins to expect.
    I thought the topic was on trying to replicate the success of another team by employing the same offensive strategy, which clearly worked better in the altitude of Denver (38-3) than in the average NBA arena (19-22) for the team we are trying to mimic?

    Unless the Raps can play and practice all of their games in Denver-esque altitudes, I don't see how trying to mimic their team is a viable option for us.

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    I would be interested to see how running an offense which doesn't start or end in an iso situation every play impacts wins. Haven't seen much of that since the Triano days (can't beleive I just said that). Hopefully coach what's his name from the D-League can draw 'em up some go to sets. If Casey can only get them to play D again, I have no doubt we can make it into the playoffs and lose in the first round.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I guess for me, it's like a student. If a kid has been a C-D student for several years, but decides to change his attitude and dedicate himself to his studies, he's still a "C-D student' until he actually posts better grades. It doesn't matter that his parents hired a tutor over the summer, or that he's approaching the new school year as a different kid... until the posted results prove otherwise, he'll still be considered to be that same "C-D student". As the saying goes, the proof is in the pudding.
    Great analogy. This is exactly how I view the team as well.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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