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Thread: This Team Needs to Attack the Rim on Offense

  1. #61
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I'm sorry that you can't see the forest for the trees.

    The 4 lines you quoted from my post were cherry-picked, taken a little out of context (by excluding other parts of my post that expanded on my explantion of those 4 lines) and based your argument on things you incorrectly inferred from my post (jimmie did a good job of exposing that), rather than what my post actually said.

    I'm not mimicking or disrespecting, I've just reached my wits end trying to explain my apparent pro-tanking point of view. Despite numerous attemps by many pro-tankers (or people that just get what the pro-tankers are actually in favor of) to explain their preferences, you still seem to base your arguments on your own perception of what "pro-tanking" actually is.
    No I don't.

  2. #62
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Ughh....this back and forth pseudo philosophical discussion is getting mind-numbingly repetitive. Why can't this be November???? WHY????
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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  4. #63
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    I didn't want this to be a tanking thread but Jimmie had to go and make it one.

    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    That's the bottom line on these forums. This is why the circle keeps turning on discussions of tank/no-tank, Gay/Derozan/Lowry, etc. One sub-section of fans thinks quite highly of the current roster, and the other sub-section sees significant flaws.

    Never the twain shall meet.

  5. #64
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    No I don't.
    Yes, you do.

    Hamster, meet wheel...
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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  7. #65
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I didn't want this to be a tanking thread but Jimmie had to go and make it one.
    LOL. You keep on doing what you do, Xix... it's a beautiful thing in some ways.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

  8. #66
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    That's the bottom line on these forums. This is why the circle keeps turning on discussions of tank/no-tank, Gay/Derozan/Lowry, etc. One sub-section of fans thinks quite highly of the current roster, and the other sub-section sees significant flaws.

    Never the twain shall meet.
    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    LOL. You keep on doing what you do, Xix... it's a beautiful thing in some ways.
    Lol ok jeff.

  9. #67
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Wrong. Anti-tankers are not concerned with that. What anti-tankers have a problem with is short-changing ourselves on a player in order to try and achieve some other goal. It's poor asset management. You should always be trying to maximize the value of an asset. If that means you have to wait till the deadline a full-season or maybe even the end of their careers to move Gay/Lowry then you do it.

    I also find it hilarious that you try to act as if you're impartial, when you are clearly a pro-tanker.
    Wait... You're willing to hold on to these guys - even though you seem resigned to the position that they're taking this team nowhere - until the right offer comes along... until the end of their careers?!?

    It's about winning basketball games, and subsequently, championships. It's not an asset management competition.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Wait... You're willing to hold on to these guys - even though you seem resigned to the position that they're taking this team nowhere - until the right offer comes along... until the end of their careers?!?

    It's about winning basketball games, and subsequently, championships. It's not an asset management competition.
    Actually I did not say they're taking the team nowhere thanks for adding that in on your own.

    Yes if you cannot find good deals for them you could look to trade other assets in order to acquire player(s) that would make the team more competitive. Just like we might be looking to trade Gay/Lowry, other teams who are currently/in the future could be considering rebuilding could be looking to move their players for picks, expirings and prospects as well.

  11. #69
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Actually I did not say they're taking the team nowhere thanks for adding that in on your own.

    Yes if you cannot find good deals for them you could look to trade other assets in order to acquire player(s) that would make the team more competitive. Just like we might be looking to trade Gay/Lowry, other teams who are currently/in the future could be considering rebuilding could be looking to move their players for picks, expirings and prospects as well.
    34-41 wins is not the promised land.

    I also don't think it is a stepping stone but rather a ceiling... 41 that is

  12. #70
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Stupid tanking threads..ugh
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  13. #71
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I'm surprised it took so many replies before someone stated the obvious. The original thread post says we have better offensive players, better defensive players and equal rebounding to a team that won 57 games....if that is true, then either George Karl is the greatest coach (was let go by the team) or that Casey is the worst coach; I personally believe neither to be true.


    A big part of the Nuggets success that cannot be duplicated is that they play in Denver with the elevation. Don't think that's a big factor? Denver went 38-3 at home last year and were 3 games under .500 on the road (19-22). That is too big of a disparity to ignore.
    Having moved from virtual sea level to same elevation as Denver, I can vouch for the effects. There is no question in my mind that it gives the Nuggets an advantage in home games. And many do forget it. That being said, the topic was TALENT, not how many wins to expect.

  14. #72
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    This makes perfect sense - The Raptors are the greatest 34 win team in the history of the sport.
    The "34 win team crap" again. To paint this team, going into this year vs last year, as a 34 win team, is Dick & Jane kindergarten level reasoning. Before you ask, I can't be bothered to point out all the different factors again. It's simplistic crap, man.

  15. #73
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    This was an interesting thread. Should've kept the tanking discussion in the other thread, imo.

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Having moved from virtual sea level to same elevation as Denver, I can vouch for the effects. There is no question in my mind that it gives the Nuggets an advantage in home games. And many do forget it. That being said, the topic was TALENT, not how many wins to expect.
    This... I didn't say we could be a near 60-win team, I just said we have more offensive talent, which isn't a ridiculous statement at all if you look at the two teams.

    Lowry/DeMar/Gay/Amir vs. Lawson/Iggy/Gallo/Faried is basically a wash offensively, I don't think anyone here is gonna argue that hopefully. Lowry is a better defender and rebounder than Lawson, Iggy is slightly better than Gay on D, Gallinari and DeRozan are both mediocre, Amir is a better defender than Faried but worse on the glass, and Koufos is about even with JV as a defender and rebounder.

    Then you're talking about Jonas vs. Koufos on offense... let's be real here who's the better offensive player? Especially next season for Toronto?

    Admittedly Denver's depth and the elevation allow them to maximize this philosophy better than we could, but we don't need to copy them. This thread was about attacking the rim more, and I was giving an example of a team that successfully uses that strategy.

  17. #75
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    The "34 win team crap" again. To paint this team, going into this year vs last year, as a 34 win team, is Dick & Jane kindergarten level reasoning. Before you ask, I can't be bothered to point out all the different factors again. It's simplistic crap, man.
    I think he was referring to last season where we won 34 games.

  18. #76
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    The "34 win team crap" again. To paint this team, going into this year vs last year, as a 34 win team, is Dick & Jane kindergarten level reasoning. Before you ask, I can't be bothered to point out all the different factors again. It's simplistic crap, man.
    You're right. If we can extrapolate our post Rudy Gay record to a full 82 game season, and pay no attention to the meaningless 7 of 8 win stretch at the end of the season against teams that were largely mailing it in, then we'll be 41-41.

    Much, much better.
    Last edited by Fully; Thu Aug 15th, 2013 at 01:39 PM.

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  20. #77
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    You're right. If we can extrapolate our post Rudy Gay record to a full 82 game season, and pay no attention to the meaningless 7 of 8 win stretch at the end of the season against teams that were largely mailing it in, then we'll be 41-41.

    Much, much better.
    Actually we were 17-15 in the 32 games Gay started which rounds up to 44 wins in an 82 game season, but sure make stuff up to suit your point.

    In the meaningless stretch you referred to we played:

    Chicago (2x): Had 3 starters (Deng & Noah out), Butler and Boozer played over 40 minutes, pretty sure they were still trying to win since they only finished 1 game ahead of ATL. For the second game Deng was back (34 mins) and we beat them again. Valanciunas did not play in the 2nd game.

    Brooklyn: Nets missing G-Force, but aside from that fully healthy. We had 8 active players. No Ross or Val, Acy was the first guy off the bench.


    It was only really a meaningless last 2 games with Boston/Atlanta playing their starters less than 20 minutes.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    You're right. If we can extrapolate our post Rudy Gay record to a full 82 game season, and pay no attention to the meaningless 7 of 8 win stretch at the end of the season against teams that were largely mailing it in, then we'll be 41-41.

    Much, much better.
    Good lord. Follow a rebuttal to Dick & Jane level logic, with yet more of it. I'm not going to get into all the differences, but:
    - You don't think Jonas will be much better than his rookie year?
    - You don't think Ross will be better than his rookie year?
    - You don't think Acy will be better?
    - You don't think DeMar's work will bring more improvements?
    - You don't think Bargs departure will make a positive difference? Were you campaigning for him to be kept, or campaigning that his departure would be addition by subtraction?
    - You don't think Novak's 3 pt shooting changes a thing?
    - You don't think Psycho T makes our front line a lot tougher?
    - You don't think Fields can be much more effective with his nerve damage fixed?
    - You don't think work over the summer, plus training camp with his new team will make any difference at all with Gay?
    - You don't think Casey being given free reins, and not constrained by BC makes a difference?

    I disagree with all of those. It remains to be seen what difference all of these things will make, but to keep chanting this "34 win team" refrain is nothing short of kindergarten logic.

  22. #79
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Good lord. Follow a rebuttal to Dick & Jane level logic, with yet more of it. I'm not going to get into all the differences, but:
    - You don't think Jonas will be much better than his rookie year?
    - You don't think Ross will be better than his rookie year?
    - You don't think Acy will be better?
    - You don't think DeMar's work will bring more improvements?
    - You don't think Bargs departure will make a positive difference? Were you campaigning for him to be kept, or campaigning that his departure would be addition by subtraction?
    - You don't think Novak's 3 pt shooting changes a thing?
    - You don't think Psycho T makes our front line a lot tougher?
    - You don't think Fields can be much more effective with his nerve damage fixed?
    - You don't think work over the summer, plus training camp with his new team will make any difference at all with Gay?
    - You don't think Casey being given free reins, and not constrained by BC makes a difference?

    I disagree with all of those. It remains to be seen what difference all of these things will make, but to keep chanting this "34 win team" refrain is nothing short of kindergarten logic.
    Not to mention Rudy's corrective eye surgery.
    In Masai we Trust.

  23. #80
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I know what I'm about to say is ridiculously simplistic, but it avoids debating hypotheticals.

    The Raptors are a non-playoff team until proven otherwise.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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