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Rudy Gay says no to tanking

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  • #31
    Bouncepass wrote: View Post
    The only guys from the 2003 draft that have sniffed a championship are LeBron, Wade and Bosh. Raptors has Bosh and accomplished nothing, and then he bolted to South Beach.
    That's why I keep saying the 84 draft was a bust, only guys that won any rings out of that were Jordan and Olajuwon.

    2 out of 24.......that there's not so good.

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    • #32
      Letter N wrote: View Post
      That's why I keep saying the 84 draft was a bust, only guys that won any rings out of that were Jordan and Olajuwon.

      2 out of 24.......that there's not so good.
      Drafted in the first round in 1984 Otis Thorpe won a championship with Rockets in 1994 and also Kevin Willis won a ring with the Spurs in 2003.

      Thorpe is next to Hakeem on the left.


      Willis is behind George W.
      Last edited by stretch; Mon Aug 19, 2013, 01:23 AM.

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      • #33
        Barkley made it to the NBA finals once and to conference finals three times beyond that. Stockton made it to the Finals twice and to conference finals three more times beyond that. Both were easily miles ahead of any Raptor ever.

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        • #34
          stretch wrote: View Post
          I had to look it up to find out that 2003 draftees that won championship rings include Darko with the Pistons in 2004, Kendrick Perkins with the Celtics in 2008, and James Jones won two the last two seasons with the Heat.
          Okay, so who wants to tank for Perkins, James Jones or Darko?

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          • #35
            Bouncepass wrote: View Post
            The only guys from the 2003 draft that have sniffed a championship are LeBron, Wade and Bosh. Raptors has Bosh and accomplished nothing, and then he bolted to South Beach.
            Right.

            And they were all top5 picks who are perennial allstars.

            The reason Bosh did nothing here is because he was on his own.

            I take your comment as further evidence of the need to acquire assets that yield allstar talent through the draft or trade. Right now outside JV the Raptors don't have the assets or flexibility.

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            • #36
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              Right.

              And they were all top5 picks who are perennial allstars.

              The reason Bosh did nothing here is because he was on his own.

              I take your comment as further evidence of the need to acquire assets that yield allstar talent through the draft or trade. Right now outside JV the Raptors don't have the assets or flexibility.
              The point is that even in the "awesome" 2003 draft, only two of the players turned out to be franchise-altering talents: Wade and LeBron. Would you blow up the Raptors' to acquire Bosh? What about for 'Melo? Those are two of the stellar top 5 picks from 2003. I think that the Raptors should consider trying to build the way Indiana or Memphis have. Develop a strong identity, and build a strong and efficient team around that identity. The idea of trading key players and receiving less value in return just for the sake of hoping to get a future star in the lottery doesn't interest me at all. If they make a trade, do it for good value players and assets, not just for the sake of dumping players and tanking.

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              • #37
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                There is more than Wiggins in this draft.

                Like 2003 LeBron was THE one but there were other awesome talent in the top 5.

                2013 is shaping up to be the same.
                Completely understand this perspective, but just to make it a bit more realistic.... how much of that awesome talent is still on the same team that drafted it in 2003?
                "This just in........ THE RAPTORS ARE AMAZING!"

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                • #38
                  Bouncepass wrote: View Post
                  The point is that even in the "awesome" 2003 draft, only two of the players turned out to be franchise-altering talents: Wade and LeBron. Would you blow up the Raptors' to acquire Bosh? What about for 'Melo? Those are two of the stellar top 5 picks from 2003. I think that the Raptors should consider trying to build the way Indiana or Memphis have. Develop a strong identity, and build a strong and efficient team around that identity. The idea of trading key players and receiving less value in return just for the sake of hoping to get a future star in the lottery doesn't interest me at all. If they make a trade, do it for good value players and assets, not just for the sake of dumping players and tanking.
                  Based on 2003 draft:

                  I like the odds of 40% franchise talent.
                  80% odds of all-star talent is really good too.

                  The difference between 2003 Cleveland, Toronto, and Denver is the 2013 Raptors would already be starting their rebuild with a potential all-star talent at C.

                  The difference between Indiana and Memphis is the flexibility those teams had when they were still in accumulation of talent mode. Toronto are still looking to add significant talent and pieces but lack high draft picks and cap space. You can't go the Indiana and Memphis route without significant cap space. It was cap space that landed the Grizz Z-Bo and Indiana Hill and West.

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                  • #39
                    Mundy wrote: View Post
                    Completely understand this perspective, but just to make it a bit more realistic.... how much of that awesome talent is still on the same team that drafted it in 2003?
                    1 player.

                    Apples and oranges comparison though. Poor management (Toronto and Cleveland) and personal reasons (Denver) lead to those players leaving their respective teams. Had Toronto and Cleveland been able to build winners who knows what would have happened. Had Melo not had a wife in the entertainment business who knows what would have happened.

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                    • #40
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      1 player.

                      Apples and oranges comparison though. Poor management (Toronto and Cleveland) and personal reasons (Denver) lead to those players leaving their respective teams. Had Toronto and Cleveland been able to build winners who knows what would have happened. Had Melo not had a wife in the entertainment business who knows what would have happened.
                      I don't think it's really all that different. If you look at most clubs with losing histories, they're struggling to keep their elite talent because these days the younger guys think that they deserve a championship the second they make an all-star team. Kevin Love starting threatening his management right after signing an extension. The Cavs are going balls-deep on any free agent they have a chance with because they know Kyrie won't re-up if they're not doing better like ASAP. The whole idea of a proper rebuild doesn't really function with a lot of people, who usually use the OKC/Spurs model of phenomenal drafting + luck that isn't realistically applied to most scenarios.
                      Last edited by Mundy; Mon Aug 19, 2013, 12:39 PM.
                      "This just in........ THE RAPTORS ARE AMAZING!"

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                      • #41
                        I'm a proponent of tanking because there is no flexibility to improve nor do we have a lot of organic growth (other than JV and possibly Ross) to hope for. To me 'tanking' is asset acquisition and at this time the Raptors need to shed payroll and get rookie scale contracts. To get good players (non rookies) on cheap contracts is hard when they are not contenders.

                        But in my opinion the hype for the 2014 draft is over blown. Wiggins is probably a sure thing.. but to compare others in that draft to the guys out of the 2003 draft is a bit much. Exum looks like he'll be a good PG, but is he even going to declare? Parker has slid, and looks like he'll be a tweener (which I hate because they can have a D. Williams career). I like watching Randle's youtube videos however could he end up like T-Rob (a journey man after only playing in the league for 2 years)? And a good PF is nice to have but they don't automatically turn a team into a contender. Smart wasn't even going to be a top pick in the weak 2013 draft - plus I think PG's are difficult to rate. Looking at some of the elite PG's in the league a lot of them were drafted later in the draft and not necessarily even in the lottery.

                        The 2014 draft just has way too much value to it and I think it will be disappointing. I think MU should buy low and get an additional 2015 or 2016 pick instead. Lowry for example should get a high 2015 pick but a very low 2014 pick. I'd rather have the high 2015 pick.

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                        • #42
                          Let's see how many tanking threads we can start before the trade deadline. We can make a game of it. We see how many we create in 1 month, and then next month, try and beat that record. It'll be fun!

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                          • #43
                            Nilanka wrote: View Post
                            Let's see how many tanking threads we can start before the trade deadline. We can make a game of it. We see how many we create in 1 month, and then next month, try and beat that record. It'll be fun!
                            Haha. Every thread seems to spiral into a debate about tanking/rebuilding within the first dozen replies, no matter what the original topic is.

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                            • #44
                              planetmars wrote: View Post
                              I'm a proponent of tanking because there is no flexibility to improve nor do we have a lot of organic growth (other than JV and possibly Ross) to hope for. To me 'tanking' is asset acquisition and at this time the Raptors need to shed payroll and get rookie scale contracts. To get good players (non rookies) on cheap contracts is hard when they are not contenders.

                              But in my opinion the hype for the 2014 draft is over blown. Wiggins is probably a sure thing.. but to compare others in that draft to the guys out of the 2003 draft is a bit much. Exum looks like he'll be a good PG, but is he even going to declare? Parker has slid, and looks like he'll be a tweener (which I hate because they can have a D. Williams career). I like watching Randle's youtube videos however could he end up like T-Rob (a journey man after only playing in the league for 2 years)? And a good PF is nice to have but they don't automatically turn a team into a contender. Smart wasn't even going to be a top pick in the weak 2013 draft - plus I think PG's are difficult to rate. Looking at some of the elite PG's in the league a lot of them were drafted later in the draft and not necessarily even in the lottery.

                              The 2014 draft just has way too much value to it and I think it will be disappointing. I think MU should buy low and get an additional 2015 or 2016 pick instead. Lowry for example should get a high 2015 pick but a very low 2014 pick. I'd rather have the high 2015 pick.
                              Agree with your first paragraph 100%. Your thoughts about the draft could turn out to be accurate. I think we'll have to wait and see how a lot of these guys perform in college this year before we know the true strength of the 2014 draft.

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                              • #45
                                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                Let's see how many tanking threads we can start before the trade deadline. We can make a game of it. We see how many we create in 1 month, and then next month, try and beat that record. It'll be fun!
                                that's such a terrible idea that it'll probably happen
                                If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                                Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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