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  • #16
    RandomGuy wrote: View Post
    Guys you should know sarcasm better than me...
    Yeah, I realized you were trying to bait me...but I was already writing my response...so it's all good.

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    • #17
      Macc wrote: View Post
      Agreed. As of right now I'd say there's only one center in the top 30 and that's Dwight. And I think in 4-5 years Jonas will be ahead of Dwight because of his lack of skill and injury history.

      Plus, I'd say Jonas is already an above average center. A lot of PF's are moving to C because 7-footers that can actually play at a decent level are somewhat of a myth right now.
      I think there are still plenty of good Cs in the league. (not ranking or comparing to Jonas)

      Marc Gasol
      Hibbert
      Noah
      Pekovic
      Chandler
      Lopez
      Howard
      Asik
      Jefferson
      Gortat

      Then you have the interchangebable guys (ie. possible PFs playing C - or C at times)

      Horford
      Monroe
      Ibaka
      Nene
      Sanders
      Splitter/Duncan
      Bosh

      The 'potential' guys

      Val
      McGee
      Drummond
      Leonard
      Jordan
      Kanter
      Cousins

      'if not injured' guys

      Bogut
      Bynum
      Varejao

      I'm sure there is a name or two I'm missing in there to.

      But I think we underrate the quality of Cs out there.

      Comment


      • #18
        Craiger wrote: View Post
        I think there are still plenty of good Cs in the league. (not ranking or comparing to Jonas)

        Marc Gasol
        Hibbert
        Noah
        Pekovic
        Chandler
        Lopez
        Howard
        Asik
        Jefferson
        Gortat

        Then you have the interchangebable guys (ie. possible PFs playing C - or C at times)

        Horford
        Monroe
        Ibaka
        Nene
        Sanders
        Splitter/Duncan
        Bosh

        The 'potential' guys

        Val
        McGee
        Drummond
        Leonard
        Jordan
        Kanter
        Cousins

        'if not injured' guys

        Bogut
        Bynum
        Varejao

        I'm sure there is a name or two I'm missing in there to.

        But I think we underrate the quality of Cs out there.
        I think the issue with bigs today is the evolution of the game. You think back 15-20 years ago and just about every contending team - other than the Bulls - had a dominant C. The way C are used today and their skillset is much different than previous era. Athleticism tends to be more valued than skill. Maybe, "You can't teach athleticism" has replaced the long time saying, "You can't teach height."

        That is a great list though, Craiger. With 27 C's on the list it certainly puts in to perspective 'the lack of quality C' in the league today.

        Comment


        • #19
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          I think the issue with bigs today is the evolution of the game. You think back 15-20 years ago and just about every contending team - other than the Bulls - had a dominant C. The way C are used today and their skillset is much different than previous era. Athleticism tends to be more valued than skill. Maybe, "You can't teach athleticism" has replaced the long time saying, "You can't teach height."

          That is a great list though, Craiger. With 27 C's on the list it certainly puts in to perspective 'the lack of quality C' in the league today.
          I think that point is why a Kenneth Farried type of player is likely to be the new starting center prototype for most teams. The game is stretching away from the half-court sets that true big men excelled in, as more teams are using the 3 point shot (especially the corner 3) and transition. A defence needs to be faster than in the past, so undersized but athletically gifted, physical rebounders who dunk is becoming the norm. Drummond projects down this path, which is also the Dwight Howard model. I think JV is very much a counter to that movement and one of the last 'old school' centers in the league. Hopefully Raptors management can understand this league wide trend and how it will impact their roster compilation if JV is the 'zig' to the leagues 'zag'.
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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          • #20
            Axel wrote: View Post
            I think that point is why a Kenneth Farried type of player is likely to be the new starting center prototype for most teams. The game is stretching away from the half-court sets that true big men excelled in, as more teams are using the 3 point shot (especially the corner 3) and transition. A defence needs to be faster than in the past, so undersized but athletically gifted, physical rebounders who dunk is becoming the norm. Drummond projects down this path, which is also the Dwight Howard model. I think JV is very much a counter to that movement and one of the last 'old school' centers in the league. Hopefully Raptors management can understand this league wide trend and how it will impact their roster compilation if JV is the 'zig' to the leagues 'zag'.
            The game slows down in the playoffs. You are at tremendous advantage as a team if you have a legit C, who you could throw a ball to at half court play and this is particularly true when it matters the most.

            "O'DONNELL: Underrated factor in this pick: With Masai Ujiri on-board (and maybe even the recent influx of talent out of Canada), Valanciunas should have some awesome teammates around him. "
            music to my ears!

            Comment


            • #21
              vino wrote: View Post
              The game slows down in the playoffs. You are at tremendous advantage as a team if you have a legit C, who you could throw a ball to at half court play and this is particularly true when it matters the most.

              "O'DONNELL: Underrated factor in this pick: With Masai Ujiri on-board (and maybe even the recent influx of talent out of Canada), Valanciunas should have some awesome teammates around him. "
              music to my ears!
              You need a player who can score in the low post, but that doesn't have to be a center. A power forward like David West or a SF with a good post up game could work just as well. Look at what Dallas did with Dirk set up at the elbow. He "posted up" in the high post and they ran their entire offence through him to a Championship.

              Plus in the playoffs, shooting %s decrease, so having an athletic big who can grab some offensive boards and give you those extra possessions is a huge bonus.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Axel wrote: View Post
                You need a player who can score in the low post, but that doesn't have to be a center. A power forward like David West or a SF with a good post up game could work just as well. Look at what Dallas did with Dirk set up at the elbow. He "posted up" in the high post and they ran their entire offence through him to a Championship.

                Plus in the playoffs, shooting %s decrease, so having an athletic big who can grab some offensive boards and give you those extra possessions is a huge bonus.
                Having an athletic big doesn't preclude the value of having a quality true C. It was not David West that gave Miami problems in the playoffs. It was Hibbert protecting the rim. Whenever Indiana pulled Hibbert to get someone more capable of covering Bosh on the outside, LeBron and Wade carved them up.

                Also interesting that you used David West as an example of grabbing offensive rebounds. Per36, West grabbed 2.1 ORBs last year. In his rookie year, Jonas grabbed 2.9

                Comment


                • #23
                  p00ka wrote: View Post
                  Having an athletic big doesn't preclude the value of having a quality true C. It was not David West that gave Miami problems in the playoffs. It was Hibbert protecting the rim. Whenever Indiana pulled Hibbert to get someone more capable of covering Bosh on the outside, LeBron and Wade carved them up.

                  Also interesting that you used David West as an example of grabbing offensive rebounds. Per36, West grabbed 2.1 ORBs last year. In his rookie year, Jonas grabbed 2.9
                  You completely misunderstood my posting.

                  Vino said you need a legit C to throw the ball into during the playoffs, as opposed to a Kenneth Farried type big, which I had previously posted as the new proto-type in the evolving NBA center position. My point was that, for the playoffs, you don't need a traditional center to throw the ball into, but rather a post scorer (ie David West on the low block or a high post guy like Dirk) that commands the double team.

                  The offensive rebounding would come from the Kenneth Farried type athletic center playing next to the scorer (David West for this example).
                  Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                  If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Axel wrote: View Post
                    You completely misunderstood my posting.

                    Vino said you need a legit C to throw the ball into during the playoffs, as opposed to a Kenneth Farried type big, which I had previously posted as the new proto-type in the evolving NBA center position. My point was that, for the playoffs, you don't need a traditional center to throw the ball into, but rather a post scorer (ie David West on the low block or a high post guy like Dirk) that commands the double team.

                    The offensive rebounding would come from the Kenneth Farried type athletic center playing next to the scorer (David West for this example).
                    Okay.

                    PS. I'll take a Jonas and a West vs a Farried and a West any day.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      p00ka wrote: View Post
                      It was not David West that gave Miami problems in the playoffs. It was Hibbert protecting the rim. Whenever Indiana pulled Hibbert to get someone more capable of covering Bosh on the outside, LeBron and Wade carved them up.
                      I'm not saying that West was more valuable then Hibbert in that series, but I was REALLY impressed by him. He did a great job on both ends of the floor. If you believe it's not just how much you score, but when you score, David West is the unsung hero of that series. There were so many times, (IMO)) where you could just feel that Indiana needed a bucket to keep the momentum from shifting to far to Miami and West would get one.

                      This is off-topic from the main thread, and again I'm not saying that West was more valuable than Hibbert, but he brought A LOT to that series. Hibbert was a beast though. (Which does seem to make it strange that that Axel brought up West as an example, because Hibbert was the guy the posted up more often... but west did get a lot of touches and made good on a lot of them)
                      "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                      "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                      "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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                      • #26
                        p00ka wrote: View Post
                        Okay.

                        PS. I'll take a Jonas and a West vs a Farried and a West any day.
                        If Jonas turns out to be a legit low post scorer, then I'd probably take Jonas and Farried. My point wasn't that Farried types are better than Jonas types, but rather that Jonas is a rare breed that fewer teams are able to find. Since they can't find a skilled 7', more teams are going for the smaller (6'9, 6'10) but uber athletic guys to play the 5.

                        ezz_bee wrote: View Post
                        I'm not saying that West was more valuable then Hibbert in that series, but I was REALLY impressed by him. He did a great job on both ends of the floor. If you believe it's not just how much you score, but when you score, David West is the unsung hero of that series. There were so many times, (IMO)) where you could just feel that Indiana needed a bucket to keep the momentum from shifting to far to Miami and West would get one.

                        This is off-topic from the main thread, and again I'm not saying that West was more valuable than Hibbert, but he brought A LOT to that series. Hibbert was a beast though. (Which does seem to make it strange that that Axel brought up West as an example, because Hibbert was the guy the posted up more often... but west did get a lot of touches and made good on a lot of them)
                        I used West as an example of an elite post-up guy. It had nothing to do with that series or any series. The comments were made to demonstrate how in the evolving NBA, the center position has changed and that more and more teams are going to employ a Farried type player because legit 7' human beings with NBA talent is very rare. Vino made the point that in the playoffs you still need a traditional center because the game slows down. Having a power forward who can score in the post and command double teams next to the Farried type center, negates that point. David West was simply the first name that came to my head, feel free to insert LaMarcus Aldridge, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Carlos Boozer, Z-Bo, Elton Brand, Al Jefferson, etc.
                        Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                        If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Axel wrote: View Post
                          If Jonas turns out to be a legit low post scorer, then I'd probably take Jonas and Farried. My point wasn't that Farried types are better than Jonas types, but rather that Jonas is a rare breed that fewer teams are able to find. Since they can't find a skilled 7', more teams are going for the smaller (6'9, 6'10) but uber athletic guys to play the 5.



                          I used West as an example of an elite post-up guy. It had nothing to do with that series or any series. The comments were made to demonstrate how in the evolving NBA, the center position has changed and that more and more teams are going to employ a Farried type player because legit 7' human beings with NBA talent is very rare. Vino made the point that in the playoffs you still need a traditional center because the game slows down. Having a power forward who can score in the post and command double teams next to the Farried type center, negates that point. David West was simply the first name that came to my head, feel free to insert LaMarcus Aldridge, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Carlos Boozer, Z-Bo, Elton Brand, Al Jefferson, etc.
                          But those types are nothing new. Horace Grant, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Rasheed Wallace, Kemp, McHale, Weber (and I'm sure we can add many more) - these were all bigs who were the focus of the offense (between the 2 bigs anyways).

                          The 'type' of player the NBA uses (or what teams prefer to use) doesn't really change that much at the macro level. At the micro level its always in flux. There was a period in the 90s where they were arguable a larger than normal amount of elite/superstar/HOF Cs at the very top, but that was an exception and not the norm.

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                          • #28
                            Craiger wrote: View Post
                            But those types are nothing new. Horace Grant, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Rasheed Wallace, Kemp, McHale, Weber (and I'm sure we can add many more) - these were all bigs who were the focus of the offense (between the 2 bigs anyways).

                            The 'type' of player the NBA uses (or what teams prefer to use) doesn't really change that much at the macro level. At the micro level its always in flux. There was a period in the 90s where they were arguable a larger than normal amount of elite/superstar/HOF Cs at the very top, but that was an exception and not the norm.
                            The scoring PF isn't knew, but often times those names you pointed out were lined up next to the awkward hulking 7'.

                            Bill Cartwright (7'1, 245) and Will Perdue (7'0 240) on the '92 Bulls for your Horace Grant example. Greg Ostertag (7'2, 280) next to Karl Malone.

                            Now you are seeing fewer of those 7' centers in the NBA and more of the smaller athletic bigs instead. Ben Wallace was a bit ahead of the curve, but guys like Joel Anthony, Anderson Varajao, Kendrick Perkins, and JJ Hickson are becoming the new norm for teams and more and more teams are using smaller and faster players. As teams put more emphasis on 3 point shooting and especially the corner 3, team defence needs 5 guys who can race out to cover the 3 when the ball is cycled around. A big hulking center like Ostertag could never get out there in time, but a faster athletic big like Andre Drummond can.

                            The Raps have a traditional stud in JV, but just rolling him out there with what worked in the past for these types of players is a mistake. As the league is shifting to the smaller, faster Cs, the Raps need to make sure they construct a roster and a scheme that can counter the faster transitional game and the more spread out perimeter game, while taking advantage of JV's size and skill.
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                            • #29
                              Axel wrote: View Post
                              The scoring PF isn't knew, but often times those names you pointed out were lined up next to the awkward hulking 7'.

                              Bill Cartwright (7'1, 245) and Will Perdue (7'0 240) on the '92 Bulls for your Horace Grant example. Greg Ostertag (7'2, 280) next to Karl Malone.

                              Now you are seeing fewer of those 7' centers in the NBA and more of the smaller athletic bigs instead. Ben Wallace was a bit ahead of the curve, but guys like Joel Anthony, Anderson Varajao, Kendrick Perkins, and JJ Hickson are becoming the new norm for teams and more and more teams are using smaller and faster players. As teams put more emphasis on 3 point shooting and especially the corner 3, team defence needs 5 guys who can race out to cover the 3 when the ball is cycled around. A big hulking center like Ostertag could never get out there in time, but a faster athletic big like Andre Drummond can.

                              The Raps have a traditional stud in JV, but just rolling him out there with what worked in the past for these types of players is a mistake. As the league is shifting to the smaller, faster Cs, the Raps need to make sure they construct a roster and a scheme that can counter the faster transitional game and the more spread out perimeter game, while taking advantage of JV's size and skill.
                              Perkins is 7ft. Varejo is 6'11. Faried himself played next to McGee and Koufos both 7ft plus.

                              There are still plenty of 7fters. Guys like Hickson and Anthony are not the norm (Anthony barely played last year, and has since been replaced by the Birdman and now Oden - both 7fters), and Hickson only has had a temporary position as a starting C. I'm not sure there is any trend heading that way.

                              The new Cs in the league may no longer be slow hulking brutes, but they are quick athletic brutes instead. I really don't see them getting shorter. I agree that they are (generally) getting more athletic though.

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                              • #30
                                Craiger wrote: View Post
                                Perkins is 7ft. Varejo is 6'11. Faried himself played next to McGee and Koufos both 7ft plus.

                                There are still plenty of 7fters. Guys like Hickson and Anthony are not the norm (Anthony barely played last year, and has since been replaced by the Birdman and now Oden - both 7fters), and Hickson only has had a temporary position as a starting C. I'm not sure there is any trend heading that way.

                                The new Cs in the league may no longer be slow hulking brutes, but they are quick athletic brutes instead. I really don't see them getting shorter. I agree that they are (generally) getting more athletic though.
                                It isn't something that can be purely quantified by something like height. Varajao is a great example. Look at his game and he would have been considered more of a PF than C in the 80s and 90s, but in the current NBA, he is a center. Kevin Garnett, Al Horford and LaMarcus Aldridge are guys who want to be PFs because they feel that is their best position, but in the current trend of NBA bigs, they are largely used at the Center position. It could be argued that KG is a better C than a PF over the last 5 years. KG bristled against coaches in Minnesota when they asked him to play C, but in Boston, he finally came to accept it. Chris Bosh went through the same thing from year 1 to now in Miami, finally accepting the fact that playing C with traditional PF traits. Both of those players realized the value of what the coaches were trying to do and I believe that it is the direction that the league is heading. The PF spot is blending with the SF spot, and the C spot is being held down by a PF.
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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