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Thread: Raptors future in Toronto

  1. #21
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    Quote Fanchie wrote: View Post
    Charlotte : 770,000 people
    Toronto : 2.8M people

    There ends the comparison.
    Let me put it this way. Population does not necessary mean market for an NBA team. Its a population that is interested and can be interested into NBA. That is why, right now, Charlotte is better NBA market than for example London, England.

    The only reason why I spoke of Charlotte is because they had by far the best NBA attendance and were one of the best markets in the NBA, only to fell apart dramatically in 4 years.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    The GTA is about 4 million strong. The Raps are a very profitable team really, in terms of market size, large enough to be one of the 5 teams most consulted and having most say during the CBA talks. There is absolutely no worry about the actual team leaving, I just worry about when we will have some actual Basketball to watch.

  3. #23
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    they were owned and driven by the gate, the raps aren't.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    I'll go ahead and call "deliberate trolling" on this thread. Ridiculous.

  5. #25
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    Stern's admitted that Vancouver leaving was the event he regretted most during his stay as commish.
    Actually I believe in the context of his whole reply that Stern's big regret was putting a team in Vancouver in the first place. The NBA, for reasons that I still don't understand, did so much to dissuade Canadian cities from getting a team and did even more to make sure they didn't prosper. The original franchise cost for Vancouver and Toronto was something like 3 or 5 times what it was for Charlotte (the 2nd time around), we had restrictions against us for drafts for the first 3 years that didn't allow us to get a 1st pick overall, I think even the expansion draft was skewed to screw us over but I may be making that one up.

    Outside of some sort of grudge against Canadians for how we treat his boy Bettman I never understood why Stern was so anti-Canada succeeding in the NBA.

  6. #26
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    The Raptors are not going anywhere! If you need reasons....please read the posts prior to this one.

  7. #27
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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    Actually I believe in the context of his whole reply that Stern's big regret was putting a team in Vancouver in the first place. The NBA, for reasons that I still don't understand, did so much to dissuade Canadian cities from getting a team and did even more to make sure they didn't prosper. The original franchise cost for Vancouver and Toronto was something like 3 or 5 times what it was for Charlotte (the 2nd time around), we had restrictions against us for drafts for the first 3 years that didn't allow us to get a 1st pick overall, I think even the expansion draft was skewed to screw us over but I may be making that one up.
    Expanding NBA to Canada was great marketing move for the NBA, which is the main reason I believe Raptors will never move. And if your expanding 27 team league to bordering country, it only makes sense to expand it by two (more than one) team. One being East and the other being on the West coast. With Grizzlies bailing out of Vancouver after 6 seasons it only makes sense to be sorry they were put there in the first place. However, I think that Stern was sorry for getting Grizzlies relocate, which was blow for further expansion outside the States.

    NBA team did cost Toronto and Vancouver more than it cost Charlotte or anyone else. I can buy that based on the fact that expending to Canada had its difficulties. Draft restrictions were unfair and can not be defended. From what I know, other owners demanded that because they did not want Duncan or Iverson playing in Canada. The only restriction during expansion draft is that we were forced to pick players we did not want, and the other teams have taken advantage of that. I wrought an interesting peace about it...
    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...xpansion-Draft

  8. #28
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    This dude spelt business "busyness" that's when I stopped reading. Oh it got worse.. just saw "wrought" in place of wrote..*sigh*

  9. #29
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    Quote C-Low wrote: View Post
    This dude spelt business "busyness" that's when I stopped reading. Oh it got worse.. just saw "wrought" in place of wrote..*sigh*
    It's Karl Marx, man. He's ESL. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Starter IROR's Avatar
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    Have to think Leiweke's NBA head office connections will keep them in TO for his tenure. In addition to high season ticket renewals, attendance, fan base and potential fan base. Will be interesting to see how Adam Silver continues on David Stern's efforts to globalize the game, that will have some impact on Canada's team.

    Can't see it happening -- too big a market.

  11. #31
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    Quote C-Low wrote: View Post
    This dude spelt business "busyness" that's when I stopped reading. Oh it got worse.. just saw "wrought" in place of wrote..*sigh*
    Is your German better than my English?

  12. #32
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    Lets stop with this already.

    Just as much chance as seeing the Bulls move.

  13. #33
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    Quote Karl Marx. wrote: View Post
    Let me put it this way. Population does not necessary mean market for an NBA team. Its a population that is interested and can be interested into NBA. That is why, right now, Charlotte is better NBA market than for example London, England.

    The only reason why I spoke of Charlotte is because they had by far the best NBA attendance and were one of the best markets in the NBA, only to fell apart dramatically in 4 years.
    Attendance is important, but it is not the one and only source of revenue. NBA TV contracts, local TV contracts, sponsoring, merchandising : all these stuff that emphasize the difference between a small market and a big market. Can you name one team whose games are broadcasted to more than 34M people ? This is adverstising money and this is way more valuable than any ticket revenue delta you may face if your team starts losing for several seasons in a row.

  14. #34
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    Quote Karl Marx. wrote: View Post
    Is your German better than my English?
    Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen!

  15. #35
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    Quote Karl Marx. wrote: View Post
    Is your German better than my English?
    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen!
    Ich liebe Bier
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  16. #36
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    Quote Karl Marx. wrote: View Post
    Let me put it this way. Population does not necessary mean market for an NBA team. Its a population that is interested and can be interested into NBA. That is why, right now, Charlotte is better NBA market than for example London, England.

    The only reason why I spoke of Charlotte is because they had by far the best NBA attendance and were one of the best markets in the NBA, only to fell apart dramatically in 4 years.
    But Charlotte's move was based on something much more than attendance. The owner wanted a new stadium, Charlotte refused to provide that, and so the owner moved the team to New Orleans. (there we some other complexities in there such as an assault charge on the owner)

    The threat of the Raptors moving is almost nil. Its not impossible, but its not probable. They have a large, wealthy and strong market. There is population easily large enough to hold a team, an appetite for sports (basketball) and the $ to pay for it. They have well established corporation as an owner (as opposed to an individual owner who is more likely to make personal choices or be impacted by outside forces). The owners themselves also own (control) the medium by which the sport sold to the majority.

    I'd say there are about 20-25 NBA teams more likely to move before Toronto.

  17. #37
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    The threat of the Raptors moving is almost nil. Its not impossible, but its not probable. They have a large, wealthy and strong market. There is population easily large enough to hold a team, an appetite for sports (basketball) and the $ to pay for it. They have well established corporation as an owner (as opposed to an individual owner who is more likely to make personal choices or be impacted by outside forces). The owners themselves also own (control) the medium by which the sport sold to the majority.
    I do not think Raptors will ever move. But than again, people in Charlotte and Seattle were convinced they would not move ether and look what happen to them. Both of those moves were not good financially. Seattle is much bigger market than Oklahoma and Charlotte was much better market for basketball (due to fanatical fans). We can even add Vancouver to the mix. It was and always will be better market for basketball than Memphis. It just so happen that the owner wanted to move the team back (to his) home. So there is personal aspect as well. If Hansen bought the Raptors, do you think he would think twice before relocating the team to Seattle? Although I am not sure league would allow that.

  18. #38
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    Quote Karl Marx. wrote: View Post
    I do not think Raptors will ever move. But than again, people in Charlotte and Seattle were convinced they would not move ether and look what happen to them. Both of those moves were not good financially. Seattle is much bigger market than Oklahoma and Charlotte was much better market for basketball (due to fanatical fans). We can even add Vancouver to the mix. It was and always will be better market for basketball than Memphis. It just so happen that the owner wanted to move the team back (to his) home. So there is personal aspect as well. If Hansen bought the Raptors, do you think he would think twice before relocating the team to Seattle? Although I am not sure league would allow that.
    I'm failing to see or understand the discussion point here. If Hansen bought the Raptors would he think twice before relocating to Seattle? Yes. Toronto is simply to valuable of a market. Is he more likely to as an individual than MLSE would be? Probably. But he doesn't own Toronto, MLSE does.

    When you are talking about markets such as Charlotte, OKC and Seathle, you are talking about markets that are a fraction of the size and financial strength of Toronto (and owners who are generally a fraction of the financial strength of MLSE and/or Rogers/Bell). Its like comparing Burger King to Joe's taco stand. Yeah Burger King isn't McDonalds but they are likely to withstand negative economic impacts. Just because Joe's taco stand had to be moved does not in any way shape or form mean its gonna happen to Burger King.

  19. #39
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    Survival of a business completely depends on financial success and as a business, the Raptors are profitable. Maybe not successful as far as wins are concerned but profitable. For two thirds of their existence they have been a losing franchise but fans have still supported them. This only proves that the team has a loyal fan base which supports the team NO MATTER WHAT. Yes winning will draw the casual fan, but the 'die hard fan' will always support this team which clearly has been enough to keep the team alive and profitably so.

    Also let's not forget to give MLSE credit for its seriousness in building a good team. Despite discouraging failures it has always done everything in it's power to try and build a winner.
    Attitude Is A Choice.

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    Survival of a business completely depends on financial success and as a business, the Raptors are profitable. Maybe not successful as far as wins are concerned but profitable. For two thirds of their existence they have been a losing franchise but fans have still supported them. This only proves that the team has a loyal fan base which supports the team NO MATTER WHAT. Yes winning will draw the casual fan, but the 'die hard fan' will always support this team which clearly has been enough to keep the team alive and profitably so.

    Also let's not forget to give MLSE credit for its seriousness in building a good team. Despite discouraging failures it has always done everything in it's power to try and build a winner.
    Under the OTPP I do not agree with this. I think they had a budget and you operated within it. The budget was no luxury tax, I think.

    But since Bell/Rogers took over a year ago, it appears to be the way you describe.

    *fingers crossed*
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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