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Thread: [Hoopsworld] Gay, Lowry contract years

  1. #21
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    How is someone saying he trains relentlessly a fact? Not saying he doesn't because I don't know, but that's my point, how do we know its a fact?
    Confused about this also. "Training relentlessly" is kind of arbitrary, so it's pretty difficult to refer to something like that as a fact, because nobody really knows what relentless training is, or has been for Lowry in the past.

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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    How is someone saying he trains relentlessly a fact? Not saying he doesn't because I don't know, but that's my point, how do we know its a fact?
    Alright, maybe not a fact per say, but it's a pretty damn good assumption, and not just because some random guy said it either.

    I think it goes without saying that all NBA players have to work hard in order to keep their level of play up, keep their role on a team secure, or even just to keep a spot on a roster. There's obviously some exceptions (Lamar Odom, etc.) but that's generally the status quo.

    You also have to remember that Kyle is going into a contract year so if he has his head straight, he's probably doing everything in his power to get in shape.

    My original point was that the media may be right when they say he's been training relentlessly, but assuming the work he puts in will automatically translate into game situations? That's kind of silly.

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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    How is someone saying he trains relentlessly a fact? Not saying he doesn't because I don't know, but that's my point, how do we know its a fact?
    When a media outlet states that someone has been "training relentlessly" you are going on the premise that the writer is not just making stuff up. You assume they have talked to the person they are speaking about, or to people associated with that person who have eyewitness accounts speaking to that fact. You don't ever ask to see a training schedule published that has little check marks beside each day when training occurred and a notation with how many hours and an indicator of intensity.

    Definition of relentless:
    1. Unyielding in severity or strictness; unrelenting: relentless persecution.
    2. Steady and persistent; unremitting:

    Words have meaning. When someone writes "training relentlessly" about an athlete who has been mailing it in, that writer loses all credibility. So you assume that the writer (whose only ticket to write is their credibility) will have done the checking and established the factual truth.

    Not trying to be a dick about this but I don't see anything strange about assuming the truth of a statement like "training relentlessly" coming from a media outlet.

    Now when weasel words like "word around the league says" or "reports have been coming in about" then you acknowledge that the write has no personal knowledge or reliable second hand knowledge of an issue. Those statement prefaces are an admittance that whatever follows is not "a fact" but only a "strong possibility."

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Confused about this also. "Training relentlessly" is kind of arbitrary, so it's pretty difficult to refer to something like that as a fact, because nobody really knows what relentless training is, or has been for Lowry in the past.
    I agree. And while I am not doubting Lowry is working hard, because really how can I know, I clearly remember hearing a ton of stories about Nazem KAdri last year for the lEafs, about how hard he was busting ass, he even said it in a few interviews...only to find out it was a lie, he skipped out on his training with Gary Roberts, and came in to camp fat. So For me, I have heard it all before.

    That said, I actually feel positive in Kyles case, I think he is a tough kid, and I think he feels challenged. I expect he will be every bit as fit as speculated. He's a warrior...now only if they can teach him to pass.

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    Quote craig wrote: View Post
    ...he's a warrior...now only if they can teach him to pass.
    :d:d:d

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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    When a media outlet states that someone has been "training relentlessly" you are going on the premise that the writer is not just making stuff up. You assume they have talked to the person they are speaking about, or to people associated with that person who have eyewitness accounts speaking to that fact. You don't ever ask to see a training schedule published that has little check marks beside each day when training occurred and a notation with how many hours and an indicator of intensity.

    Definition of relentless:
    1. Unyielding in severity or strictness; unrelenting: relentless persecution.
    2. Steady and persistent; unremitting:

    Words have meaning. When someone writes "training relentlessly" about an athlete who has been mailing it in, that writer loses all credibility. So you assume that the writer (whose only ticket to write is their credibility) will have done the checking and established the factual truth.

    Not trying to be a dick about this but I don't see anything strange about assuming the truth of a statement like "training relentlessly" coming from a media outlet.

    Now when weasel words like "word around the league says" or "reports have been coming in about" then you acknowledge that the write has no personal knowledge or reliable second hand knowledge of an issue. Those statement prefaces are an admittance that whatever follows is not "a fact" but only a "strong possibility."
    I try my best not to assume things.
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    Are you guys seriously analyzing and breaking down the word "relentlessly"? Wow...hurry up October!

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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Are you guys seriously analyzing and breaking down the word "relentlessly"? Wow...hurry up October!
    its better than the time people were trying to argue the definition of 'legacy'

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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Every year we get media pumping up a player or coach or new system with great promise for the upcoming season. In fact I suggest the frequency of these types of articles will increase in frequency as we get into October. I am not buying it. I remember a 6-1 preseason followed by a 4-19 run. Don't get sucked in......until we actually win some regular season games with some consistency it is meaningless. Remember the media's job is to see papers or subscriptions to their web site by drumming up interest.
    To be honest I'm all about buying in. I don't get my hopes up high enough that it would truly effect my psyche if I'm disappointed once again. I harbour no crazy illusions about the ceiling of our roster but that doesn't mean I want them to come in out of shape. Somebody mis-reporting exactly how hard Kyle Lowry is working? I'll take that at face value just because I don't care THAT much, and don't really see what kind of agenda the writer would have by lying.
    Last edited by Mundy; Tue Aug 27th, 2013 at 02:57 PM.
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  12. #30
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    Look, I'm sure Lowry is training very hard. Honestly, there's never really been a concern about Kyle Lowry's work ethic, has there? It's always been very clear he's willing to bust ass.

    The problem with Kyle Lowry throughout his career is not one of work ethic: it's the fact that he's been a troublesome presence in many a locker room (he was even getting called out for it last year in Toronto!), and no amount of redefining the word "relentlessly" is going to change that.

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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Look, I'm sure Lowry is training very hard. Honestly, there's never really been a concern about Kyle Lowry's work ethic, has there? It's always been very clear he's willing to bust ass.

    The problem with Kyle Lowry throughout his career is not one of work ethic: it's the fact that he's been a troublesome presence in many a locker room (he was even getting called out for it last year in Toronto!), and no amount of redefining the word "relentlessly" is going to change that.
    He was kind of fat last year.

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    http://instagram.com/p/diV2mfo4yC

    Gay's working out with Hakeem the Dream! Putting in the work

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    Every year there's stories about guys working in the offseason, rarely have I seen much difference in on court production.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

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    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
    http://instagram.com/p/diV2mfo4yC

    Gay's working out with Hakeem the Dream! Putting in the work
    It's not realistic to expect Gay to increase his efficiency to the levels that LBJ got them to after working with Hakeem, but a more efficient Gay is a really, really good thing. The Raptors would benefit greatly from a legit mid post scoring threat. Wonder if this is why he is reportedly bulking up. Now...who is he going to be passing out of the post to for easy 3's?

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    It's not realistic to expect Gay to increase his efficiency to the levels that LBJ got them to after working with Hakeem, but a more efficient Gay is a really, really good thing. The Raptors would benefit greatly from a legit mid post scoring threat. Wonder if this is why he is reportedly bulking up. Now...who is he going to be passing out of the post to for easy 3's?
    I actually think Novak will get some good burn off the bench. A quick-hit assassin in the mold of Dell Curry. Only plays 15-20mpg at most, but while he's on the floor, a lot of sets are run to get him open looks.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I actually think Novak will get some good burn off the bench. A quick-hit assassin in the mold of Dell Curry. Only plays 15-20mpg at most, but while he's on the floor, a lot of sets are run to get him open looks.
    I agree. I think this is where the new coaching staff comes into play. There needs to be a lot more creativity in bursts when it comes to play-calling and Novak could be a wild card for us.
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    Quote Mundy wrote: View Post
    I agree. I think this is where the new coaching staff comes into play. There needs to be a lot more creativity in bursts when it comes to play-calling and Novak could be a wild card for us.
    We need more Simpsons-themed avatars up in this bizatch!
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    Every year there's stories about guys working in the offseason, rarely have I seen much difference in on court production.
    I think this is because meaningful production rarely changes after a few years.

    Players can change (positively or negatively) but the rate of change (particularily to the positive as this is what we tend to be more concerned with) decreases dramatically at a certain point.

    This is both minutes based (ie. assuming someone has a decent sample size, there change in production from 20 minutes per game to 36 minutes per game is usually marginal on a per minutes basis) and seasons based. What does tend to offer significant change in production is role (usage, position etc) and ofcourse injuries.

    I think Amir is a great example. His per minutes and % based numbers are very similar from his first year in Toronto (5th year in the NBA, but only 3rd year with any minutes of significance) and last season. Even though he is believed to be a very hard worker, saw a lot more floor time per game, and gained much more experience, all of which should conceivably impact his production we see very little change. The only season with a noteable change (and it should be noted the change is not exactly of a significant magnitude - ie. he didn't go from a good player to a bad player, but rather from a good player to a less good player) is in 2011/12 where he played a larger number of minutes as a C than his more traditional PF position.

    Just a quick simple view using the 3 most common advanced stats (2009/10 to 2012/13)

    PER - 16.7, 17.6, 14.4, 17.3
    WS/48 - .150, .146, .122, .151
    WP/48 - .198, .192, .188, .216

    Those are very narrow ranges of change over time, particularily if we account for his role/position change (ie. more C) in 2010/11

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  25. #39
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    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
    http://instagram.com/p/diV2mfo4yC

    Gay's working out with Hakeem the Dream! Putting in the work
    some nice moves there

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I actually think Novak will get some good burn off the bench. A quick-hit assassin in the mold of Dell Curry. Only plays 15-20mpg at most, but while he's on the floor, a lot of sets are run to get him open looks.
    I totally agree. Novak is a weapon which I hope Casey has full intent on using. It's been a long while since we've had an elite shooter. He's not a great rebounder but there is pretty decent size between he and Gay at the 3 and 4 positions, so hopefully we're not losing too much on the glass having them out there together. Obviously it would make more sense to have better shooting at SG, and have a legit PF out there, but this should lead to some interesting line up's.

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