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Thread: FIBA Americas Tournament

  1. #121
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    Extremely disappointing.

    I think you have to put a big chunk of the blame on Jay Triano. From a talent standpoint, Canada had far more NBA caliber players than any other team in the tournament, including 1st rounders. Secondly, the team was jelling nicely in the first round, so to un-ravel all of a sudden in the second round, it doesn't seem like a talent issue. This is where you would expect Jay's years of experience with international coaching to come to the fore, but it didn't. Perhaps that overachieving Canadian Olympic team was mostly due to Nash than Jay, way back.

    Jay seems similar to coaches like Randy Wittman and Terry Stotts. Nice guy coaches who know their X's and O's, and whom GMs don't feel threatened by, but are better suited as assistant coaches.
    Last edited by golden; Sun Sep 8th, 2013 at 09:45 PM.

  2. #122
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    Blame Triano?Really? More like Praise Triano for putting a competetive team on the floor and getting them into the second round in his first year.

    It's a bit of a dissapointment, but I'm certainly nowhere near ready to play the blame game. This is essentially a new team..majority of guys who have little to no international experience or chemistry from playing together. I'd say Triano did a pretty bang-up job. The team just couldn't keep it together..they'll learn from this and be back.. hopefully better.
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  3. #123
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Blame Triano?Really? More like Praise Triano for putting a competetive team on the floor and getting them into the second round in his first year.

    It's a bit of a dissapointment, but I'm certainly nowhere near ready to play the blame game. This is essentially a new team..majority of guys who have little to no international experience or chemistry from playing together. I'd say Triano did a pretty bang-up job. The team just couldn't keep it together..they'll learn from this and be back.. hopefully better.
    Praise what? put together this team? heck, even i could do that.

    You dont have to be a rocket scientist to figure out who should and shouldn't be on this team.

    All the NBA players(Nicholson, Thompson, Joseph, Anthony). A good young player like Brady Heslip and a couple of veterans that can play like Kendall, Anderson and Rautins. All these guys to me are are no brainer to be on the team. And they were all on the team.
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  4. #124
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Praise what? put together this team? heck, even i could do that.

    You dont have to be a rocket scientist to figure out who should and shouldn't be on this team.

    All the NBA players(Nicholson, Thompson, Joseph, Anthony). A good young player like Brady Heslip and a couple of veterans that can play like Kendall, Anderson and Rautins. All these guys to me are are no brainer to be on the team. And they were all on the team.
    Nash put the team together. Not Triano. And sure, ok, mr. no brainer, you could put this team together. But, could you lead them into the second round of the tourney with a 3-1 record? could you have them competing at as high a level as they did? (Al gMES BUT ONE WERE TIGHTLY CONTESTED.)
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  5. #125
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Nash put the team together. Not Triano. And sure, ok, mr. no brainer, you could put this team together. But, could you lead them into the second round of the tourney with a 3-1 record? could you have them competing at as high a level as they did? (Al gMES BUT ONE WERE TIGHTLY CONTESTED.)
    Games were all tighly contested but one you're right. But it shouldn't be that way. This team with all the talent that they have should blow out all these teams. I mean, look at all the talent that Team Canada has compared to some other other teams in this tourney. It's ridicuolous.

    Canada lost to the Dominican Republic the other day and the DR only have one NBA player on their team and that's Francisco Garcia. And that game if you watched it was embarassing because DR can do anything they want offensively. They shot almost 60% the whole game. Unacceptable.

    And i said this before and i'll say it again. Triano's run and gun offence, no defence style of play is gonna be the downfall of this team. I don't care if Bennett and Wiggins is on the team. If they can't beat teams with no name players. Then good luck against teams with NBA players.
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  6. #126
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    Sorry Guys, maybe the other teams had better players. They sure as hell played better defence.

  7. #127
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    Canada's defense was solid and consistent throughout the tournament. Only Puerto Rico was stronger on defense among the 10 teams in Caracas. Canada's downfall was that they had difficulty scoring down the stretch and the lack of experience with FIBA rules. Nicholson led the tournament in technical fouls, some coming in very inopportune moments. Some of the players logged big minutes early on in the tournament and that came back to haunt them losing the last 3 games.

  8. #128
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    The defense was horrendous. Reminds me of the JT led Raps where DeRozan would go off for 30 and we'd still lose cause of shit D. Nicholson would drop 30 and we'd still lose, same scenario. Sadly JT hasn't improved as a coach

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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Games were all tighly contested but one you're right. But it shouldn't be that way. This team with all the talent that they have should blow out all these teams. I mean, look at all the talent that Team Canada has compared to some other other teams in this tourney. It's ridicuolous.

    Canada lost to the Dominican Republic the other day and the DR only have one NBA player on their team and that's Francisco Garcia. And that game if you watched it was embarassing because DR can do anything they want offensively. They shot almost 60% the whole game. Unacceptable.

    And i said this before and i'll say it again. Triano's run and gun offence, no defence style of play is gonna be the downfall of this team. I don't care if Bennett and Wiggins is on the team. If they can't beat teams with no name players. Then good luck against teams with NBA players.
    I think you're massively underrating their impact. 2 1st overall picks! especially Wiggins who's being compared to the best basketball player on the planet. If Wiggins lives up to that hype, you could throw a fucking homeless person out there to coach the team and we'd still win.

  10. #130
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    I don't think there's that much blame necessary. I'd say Nash probably put together the most talented lineup he could with the guys he had available, and Triano did a decent job managing that lineup. Though between them, their inability to come up with a real SF solution ended up being an issue at times. Going with three bigs will be much more effective when the big playing SF is Bennett and not Doornekamp. There's also a lot of specialists on this team, which makes putting balanced lineups on the floor a challenge. Guys like Anthony, Rautins, and Heslip belong on this team, but you'd ideally like to be playing them more situationally, rather than counting on them for minutes.
    But ultimately a lack of experience amongst their most skilled players and a lack of skill amongst their most experienced players was their downfall. It's going to be an ongoing issue for team Canada: their most talented players will be going the NBA route and lack the understanding of the international game. It's an issue that a team like the US can overcome with elite skill. For Canada, it'll be more of a challenge, even as their skill level improves. Nicholson was where this was most visible: couldn't stay in games, despite the fact that refs were calling him for the exact same things all tournament long. He needed to stop assuming that the refs were wrong and instead try to learn what he was doing wrong.
    I think you could also say that there was a lack of clutchness on this team. They didn't have a real idea of how to close out games, except when they had the luxury of a couple hot 3-point shooters. You look at the guys who really burned them this tournament, and it was rarely young guys... it was skilled veterans. FIBA tournaments are made for skilled veterans. Canada has exactly zero of them.

  11. #131
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    The defense was horrendous. Reminds me of the JT led Raps where DeRozan would go off for 30 and we'd still lose cause of shit D. Nicholson would drop 30 and we'd still lose, same scenario. Sadly JT hasn't improved as a coach
    Again, Canada's defense was the best part of their game in Caracas. Canada allowed the fewest points of the 8 teams that made it to the second round.

    Team ..........................Points Made .....Points Against
    1. Mexico ........................ 548 ................525
    2. Dominican Republic ....... 561................523
    3. Puerto Rico ....................587 ...............548
    4. Argentina ..................... 564 ...............545
    5. Venezuela .....................511 ................501
    6. Canada ........................ 534 ................499
    7. Uruguay ....................... 482 ................584
    8. Jamaica ....................... 527 ................589


    Source: http://www.caracas2013.com/en/standing.htm

  12. #132
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    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    I don't think there's that much blame necessary. I'd say Nash probably put together the most talented lineup he could with the guys he had available, and Triano did a decent job managing that lineup. Though between them, their inability to come up with a real SF solution ended up being an issue at times. Going with three bigs will be much more effective when the big playing SF is Bennett and not Doornekamp. There's also a lot of specialists on this team, which makes putting balanced lineups on the floor a challenge. Guys like Anthony, Rautins, and Heslip belong on this team, but you'd ideally like to be playing them more situationally, rather than counting on them for minutes.
    But ultimately a lack of experience amongst their most skilled players and a lack of skill amongst their most experienced players was their downfall. It's going to be an ongoing issue for team Canada: their most talented players will be going the NBA route and lack the understanding of the international game. It's an issue that a team like the US can overcome with elite skill. For Canada, it'll be more of a challenge, even as their skill level improves. Nicholson was where this was most visible: couldn't stay in games, despite the fact that refs were calling him for the exact same things all tournament long. He needed to stop assuming that the refs were wrong and instead try to learn what he was doing wrong.
    I think you could also say that there was a lack of clutchness on this team. They didn't have a real idea of how to close out games, except when they had the luxury of a couple hot 3-point shooters. You look at the guys who really burned them this tournament, and it was rarely young guys... it was skilled veterans. FIBA tournaments are made for skilled veterans. Canada has exactly zero of them.
    Bang on, dude. Great analysis.
    Triano wasn't the strongest coach out there, but he did manage to get this team close to their ceiling. Sure, we had a few NBA players, but we also had people that were on the same teams that got blown out by everybody but absolute disasters in the past. Doorenkamp, Rautins, even Kendall, these guys have no business being impact players on a team that's supposed to compete at this high a level. No knock on them, they've been there holding it down for our country for a while and I wish them great success overseas, but we'll never be good enough to stand up with better teams, even when they don't have their best players.

    I think people over-estimate the idea of having "NBA" players. Joel Anthony is an NBA player but hasn't done much more than block shots for, what, 4 years now? We might have a shot at Bonner one day, will he make us better by having 25% more NBA talent? Not too likely.
    Last edited by Mundy; Mon Sep 9th, 2013 at 03:56 PM.
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  13. #133
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    Quote Mundy wrote: View Post
    Bang on, dude. Great analysis.
    Triano wasn't the strongest coach out there, but he did manage to get this team close to their ceiling. Sure, we had a few NBA players, but we also had people that were on the same teams that got blown out by everybody but absolute disasters in the past. Doorenkamp, Rautins, even Kendall, these guys have to business being impact players on a team that's supposed to compete at this high a level. No knock on them, they've been there holding it down for our country for a while and I wish them great success overseas, but we'll never be good enough to stand up with better teams, even when they don't have their best players.

    I think people over-estimate the idea of having "NBA" players. Joel Anthony is an NBA player but hasn't done much more than block shots for, what, 4 years now? We might have a shot at Bonner one day, will he make us better by having 25% more NBA talent? Not too likely.
    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    I don't think there's that much blame necessary. I'd say Nash probably put together the most talented lineup he could with the guys he had available, and Triano did a decent job managing that lineup. Though between them, their inability to come up with a real SF solution ended up being an issue at times. Going with three bigs will be much more effective when the big playing SF is Bennett and not Doornekamp. There's also a lot of specialists on this team, which makes putting balanced lineups on the floor a challenge. Guys like Anthony, Rautins, and Heslip belong on this team, but you'd ideally like to be playing them more situationally, rather than counting on them for minutes.
    But ultimately a lack of experience amongst their most skilled players and a lack of skill amongst their most experienced players was their downfall. It's going to be an ongoing issue for team Canada: their most talented players will be going the NBA route and lack the understanding of the international game. It's an issue that a team like the US can overcome with elite skill. For Canada, it'll be more of a challenge, even as their skill level improves. Nicholson was where this was most visible: couldn't stay in games, despite the fact that refs were calling him for the exact same things all tournament long. He needed to stop assuming that the refs were wrong and instead try to learn what he was doing wrong.
    I think you could also say that there was a lack of clutchness on this team. They didn't have a real idea of how to close out games, except when they had the luxury of a couple hot 3-point shooters. You look at the guys who really burned them this tournament, and it was rarely young guys... it was skilled veterans. FIBA tournaments are made for skilled veterans. Canada has exactly zero of them.
    I'd like these posts. But, that feature seems to be broken atm
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  14. #134
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    I'd like these posts. But, that feature seems to be broken atm
    I'm with you.

    Canada fielded a young team with minimal FIBA experience (also minimal pro/men's experience). International ball is completely different - just ask the 2004 US Olympic team about how NBA talent "should" win in international tournaments against non-NBA players. Or ask Linas "19 ppg" Kleiza about FIBA vs NBA.

    The talk of blaming the coach or canning somebody at this point is ridiculously premature. The team is way too young, and they just got going with current management/players.

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    I'm with you.

    Canada fielded a young team with minimal FIBA experience (also minimal pro/men's experience). International ball is completely different - just ask the 2004 US Olympic team about how NBA talent "should" win in international tournaments against non-NBA players. Or ask Linas "19 ppg" Kleiza about FIBA vs NBA.

    The talk of blaming the coach or canning somebody at this point is ridiculously premature. The team is way too young, and they just got going with current management/players.
    and with this fine post. Close this thread up until next year..I do not have that ability and thus it will continue..but, in my mind this is a closed discussion..until the next tourney
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  16. #136
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    I'm indifferent to a lot of people's opinions on this. I personally think the team lost or was not successful because of their inexperience in the International game. They don't have an identity yet, and regardless how talented this team is, and definitely will be with Olynyk, Bennett, and Wiggins coming in, they just didn't have a backbone, or some sort of shelter to rely on when things go bad.

    The defense more often than not was solid in my opinion, especially with a Jay Triano team. James Borbath from DNB and I were tweeting one another about how the players on Team Canada were hedging on screens and closing gaps better than the Triano-coached Raptors.

    Offense, they had A LOT of options to run to, especially with guys like Joseph, who was more often than not successful finding his way to the rim, whether it was his own shot-creation, or via pick-&-roll/pop with Thompson, Kendall, and Nicholson. Speaking of Nicholson, he was the guy on the team that could create something out of literally nothing - role will eventually be taken by Wiggins.

    They struggled in games, because of their inexperience to deal with teams they should be beating, or similar to the Raptors, no killer instinct whatsoever - losing leads, not keeping up with the attack, etc. They settled for jump-shots near the end of games - no discipline. They looked like they were trying to make a 14 point deficit, a 3 point game in 2 possessions. The team also lost their composure i.e. Andrew Nicholson getting tossed, Rautins losing his cool. Team is young, and team is still learning how to be professionals, even though they're already pros in the eyes of many.

    I'm happy though, even when I'm also disappointed they didn't qualify, because, let's be honest here, Canada wouldn't even win more than a game or 2 since maybe when Nash was still playing. The country's players in the recent past have been used to being ousted by 20, 30, even 40 points on occasions.

    This was the first time in a long time, Canada has looked, or even performed at a level that makes them relevant. This program is only going to grow, and grow to become bigger and better.

  17. #137
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    All I'm saying, is Steve Nash walks on to that court, and Canada qualifies. Period. So why did he bother signing up if he had no intentions to field the best possible squad.

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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    All I'm saying, is Steve Nash walks on to that court, and Canada qualifies. Period. So why did he bother signing up if he had no intentions to field the best possible squad.
    Because the Lakers pay him more than Team Canada does.
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    All I'm saying, is Steve Nash walks on to that court, and Canada qualifies. Period. So why did he bother signing up if he had no intentions to field the best possible squad.
    Somebody's full of grumpy whine today. Nash owes Basketball Canada nothing. He gave 10 years as a player for the national team, and is now giving in a different capacity. A role that fits with his age and conditioning needs for his last couple of years of his career. Nothing to criticize about Nash at all.

    As far as how the team did, probably as well as could be expected. There's some talent, even without Wiggins, Bennett, Olynyk, but they're kids in the international tourney game, who played 8 games in 10 days against seasoned men. These boys got very valuable experience from this, and the result is a minor speed bump in the promising outlook for our national team.

  20. #140
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