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Thread: SI: Raps "due for most constructive season without making playoffs"

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I'm not saying that those games should have been easy wins for the Raptors. The fact that they weren't is kind of the whole point.

    For the record I think the team will flirt with 40 wins next year if they play the season out, but I'm convinced that the tear down is inevitable (which the SI writer seems to agree with, except he calls it "personnel cycling"). I just don't think Raptor fans should be insulted or outraged when people refer to them as a 34 win team. Beyond the fact that the team actually only won 34 games last year, without the late season winning streak their record after the Gay trade would be on the same pace.
    That and your other point was a great one - they also had a 5-15 stretch with Gay and a 12-11 stretch with Calderon at the point. Those sample sizes are just too small - you can make whatever point you want.

    I'd be fine with just saying "There's more talent on this roster than a 34-win team." With training camp and Casey hounding on the D again, they ought to be a bit better at least.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Rookie Mundy's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I'm not saying that those games should have been easy wins for the Raptors. The fact that they weren't is kind of the whole point.

    For the record I think the team will flirt with 40 wins next year if they play the season out, but I'm convinced that the tear down is inevitable (which the SI writer seems to agree with, except he calls it "personnel cycling"). I just don't think Raptor fans should be insulted or outraged when people refer to them as a 34 win team. Beyond the fact that the team actually only won 34 games last year, without the late season winning streak their record after the Gay trade would be on the same pace.
    Haha, passive-agressive PC bullshit.

    You do make a good point. I'm ever the optimist so I think our ceiling this year is a bit higher but I wouldn't be surprised at all if we stumble out the gates and Ujiri drops a grenade in the locker room.... after Val has left.
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  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Mundy wrote: View Post
    ... after Val has left.
    Get thee behind me Satan.

  4. #24
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    No but thats not the point. This Roster did not post 34 wins last year. Two seperate rosters combined to post 34 wins.
    One of those Rosters performed much better than the other.

    Extrapolating the record that the 2nd roster put up, which is what we are moving forward with, I think its unfair, and doesn't make much sense, to say this is a 34 win team.
    It's dishonest to just pick one part of the season and saying we played .500 so there. Since you can pick and chose so can I. After the adrenaline died off from the Rudy Gay trade we went 5-15, before pulling off our 5 game win streak against teams that played their bench major minutes. We were tied with Washington for 29 wins before that. Right now we can't say that this will be a .500 team next year. The only thing roster has proven is that they can win 34 games, that's it.
    Last edited by DG88; Thu Sep 12th, 2013 at 10:53 PM.

  5. #25
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote DG88 wrote: View Post
    It's dishonest to just pick one part of the season and saying we played .500 so there. Since you can pick and chose so can I. After the adrenaline died off from the Rudy Gay trade we went 5-15, before pulling off our 5 game win streak against teams that played their bench major minutes. We were tied with Washington for 29 wins before that. Right now we can't say that this will be a .500 team next year. The only thing roster has proven is that they can win 34 games, that's it.
    Except I'm not picking and choosing... I'm splitting the season into two very distinct portions. I thought that was clear.

    And I'm not saying to call us a .500 team.
    I'm just saying its misleading, slightly inaccurate and poor journalism to judge our "talent-to-cost ratio" as 34-wins, based off so many varying, and no longer existing, factors from last year.
    Last edited by Joey; Thu Sep 12th, 2013 at 11:00 PM.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    I don't really care what thier record was after the Rudy trade. The thing that matters is that we played great D after that trade. If Casey can replicate that. Which is pretty likely. We're be in a lot of games. I don't know about y'all but, I feel a lot more confident in those close games with a player like Rudy Gay on our team.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Given that the vast majority of a 34-win team is back, Torontoís talent-to-cost ratio stands as among the leagueís worst.
    There are two clauses here.

    Clause 1: ...the vast majority of a 34-win team is back...
    Clause 2: ... Toronto's talent to cost ratio is among the league's worst.

    I have no problem with clause one, if you were to identify the "core" players from last year I would say they are Calderon, Lowry, Bargnani, Derozan, JV, Amir, Davis, and Gay.

    Of those 8, 5 are returning which is a majority and the team did win 34 games. That said, I can understand why people take issue with it and that's okay.

    It's the second clause that has been largely ignored in this thread.

    This team DOES have a crappy talent/production to salary ratio, and that statement (imo) holds true even if you change to the "34 win team" part of the first clause to ".500" level team.

    This is a huge issue, and should not be ignored.

    EDIT: I'm not hating on the Raptors and I do think that Ujiri is aware of this and is looking to rectify it, but just because clause 1 is debatable doesn't we can entirely through out clause two (even though grammatically it is a dependent clause [I think]).
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Fri Sep 13th, 2013 at 03:09 AM.
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  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I don't really care what thier record was after the Rudy trade. The thing that matters is that we played great D after that trade. If Casey can replicate that. Which is pretty likely. We're be in a lot of games. I don't know about y'all but, I feel a lot more confident in those close games with a player like Rudy Gay on our team.
    Definitely agree on the bolded. It's comforting knowing that when a possession goes to hell, and we need a shot created out of nothing, Rudy has the ability to bail us out.

    A healthy Lowry should be able to do the same.
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  9. #29
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Except I'm not picking and choosing... I'm splitting the season into two very distinct portions. I thought that was clear.

    And I'm not saying to call us a .500 team.
    I'm just saying its misleading, slightly inaccurate and poor journalism to judge our "talent-to-cost ratio" as 34-wins, based off so many varying, and no longer existing, factors from last year.
    You don't think they deserve to be called a .500 team (41 wins) but you don't think they should be called a 34 win team either. Not trying to be an ass but what exactly were you looking for then? Referring to them as a 37 or 38 win team? It's really all the same when you're in that 30-42 win zone... Not good enough to be a real factor and not bad enough to draft in the top five. I think they call it the treadmill.

    That's kind of the other part to this that Ezzbee touched on. Even if you are willing to extrapolate the break even record from last year to a full regular season in 2013-14... A .500 record really isn't any sort of accomplishment and is only marginally better than last year's season which we can all agree was a letdown. And it won't even guarantee you a playoff spot in next year's Eastern Conference.

    Tear it down!
    Last edited by Fully; Fri Sep 13th, 2013 at 09:07 AM.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    There are two clauses here.

    Clause 1: ...the vast majority of a 34-win team is back...
    Clause 2: ... Toronto's talent to cost ratio is among the league's worst.

    I have no problem with clause one, if you were to identify the "core" players from last year I would say they are Calderon, Lowry, Bargnani, Derozan, JV, Amir, Davis, and Gay.

    Of those 8, 5 are returning which is a majority and the team did win 34 games. That said, I can understand why people take issue with it and that's okay.

    It's the second clause that has been largely ignored in this thread.

    This team DOES have a crappy talent/production to salary ratio, and that statement (imo) holds true even if you change to the "34 win team" part of the first clause to ".500" level team.

    This is a huge issue, and should not be ignored.

    EDIT: I'm not hating on the Raptors and I do think that Ujiri is aware of this and is looking to rectify it, but just because clause 1 is debatable doesn't we can entirely through out clause two (even though grammatically it is a dependent clause [I think]).
    This is very true - it also leads straight back to the "tear it down" vs. "soldier on" debate. I'm guessing Ujiri's open to either, depending on how the first half (or so) of the season plays out.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    This is very true - it also leads straight back to the "tear it down" vs. "soldier on" debate. I'm guessing Ujiri's open to either, depending on how the first half (or so) of the season plays out.
    As someone else said MU already knows what he wants to do. It is all about timing and opportunity - and if the plan is to tear it down, a maximum return on assets.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    I think MU, like the rest of the league, want to see what kind of Rudy we have after the eye surgery.
    @jerboat

  13. #33
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I don't really care what thier record was after the Rudy trade. The thing that matters is that we played great D after that trade. If Casey can replicate that. Which is pretty likely. We're be in a lot of games. I don't know about y'all but, I feel a lot more confident in those close games with a player like Rudy Gay on our team.
    Agreed. Plus Rudy can shut down opposing teams' stars defensively....If he can recognize when to find the open look if he gets double teamed rather than force the issue the team will do better.

  14. #34
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    As someone else said MU already knows what he wants to do. It is all about timing and opportunity - and if the plan is to tear it down, a maximum return on assets.
    I don't know if the plan is to tear it down at this point. If we start 5-19 then that will obviously change..

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    I don't know if the plan is to tear it down at this point. If we start 5-19 then that will obviously change..
    It was a different thread I referred to - thought it was this one. I agree with this:

    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Maybe I'm just bored because it's been forever since the season and draft ended and thus anything of real substance to talk about, but all this talk about MU waithing to see how we start the season to decide what he wants to do next is just sounding like bs to me. Does a guy who has been around the NBA for so long now, and has intimate knowledge of the players really need to see how the same team from the previous year is going to fare this season? Like what is there left for him to judge about the roster? JV isn't going any where and all the likely suspects for a trade (Gay, DeRozan, Lowry, Amir, Feilds) are known quatities. They aren't about to do something completely extraordinary this season. I think MU already knows what he wants to do and no matter how we start the season it won't change his plans.

    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post232351

    I have to agree with this. The worst thing MU could do is say, "Maybe it is best if players x/y/z go to a new place" or "I am looking to send out all our better but overpaid players." We know how that worked with Bargnani - the phone stops ringing and there is no value to be found based on the lack of transaction after BC's statements regarding trading Bargnani.

    If MU did not know what he wanted to do I'd be kind of scared. Gay with 7 years, Lowry with 7 years, DeRozan with 4 years, and Amir with 8 years experience are all known quantities. Outside of a spectacular diamond in the rough find among the minimum contract players the only real unknown on the Raptors roster is does Fields regain his jumpshot or not. Outside of last year's rookies, everything else is pretty much known in my opinion and it is why I am with Mediumcore and MU knows what he wants to do. If blowing up is the plan he is just waiting for the right opportunity to maximize return on assets.
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  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    ....If MU did not know what he wanted to do I'd be kind of scared. Gay with 7 years, Lowry with 7 years, DeRozan with 4 years, and Amir with 8 years experience are all known quantities. Outside of a spectacular diamond in the rough find among the minimum contract players the only real unknown on the Raptors roster is does Fields regain his jumpshot or not....
    To this I would add, does Rudy's surgery provide any help at all to his shot, how much has Jonas improved his game, with the added weight and playing time over the summer, and can T Ross pull himself out of the morass of shit he seems to be embedded in. I think those are all interesting questions that need 15-20 games into the season to answer.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    To this I would add, does Rudy's surgery provide any help at all to his shot, how much has Jonas improved his game, with the added weight and playing time over the summer, and can T Ross pull himself out of the morass of shit he seems to be embedded in. I think those are all interesting questions that need 15-20 games into the season to answer.
    The rookie contract guys are definite unknowns.
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  18. #38
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    Also, Fields' value is probably a bit low. If he has fixed his shot he suddenly increases his trade value.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    I think the one thing we can all agree on is that we will be competitive in a lot of games. I think If were in as many close games as last year. We will do better than last year in those situations for thread reason growing pains, more shooter and more vets.

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It was a different thread I referred to - thought it was this one. I agree with this:




    I have to agree with this. The worst thing MU could do is say, "Maybe it is best if players x/y/z go to a new place" or "I am looking to send out all our better but overpaid players." We know how that worked with Bargnani - the phone stops ringing and there is no value to be found based on the lack of transaction after BC's statements regarding trading Bargnani.

    If MU did not know what he wanted to do I'd be kind of scared. Gay with 7 years, Lowry with 7 years, DeRozan with 4 years, and Amir with 8 years experience are all known quantities. Outside of a spectacular diamond in the rough find among the minimum contract players the only real unknown on the Raptors roster is does Fields regain his jumpshot or not. Outside of last year's rookies, everything else is pretty much known in my opinion and it is why I am with Mediumcore and MU knows what he wants to do. If blowing up is the plan he is just waiting for the right opportunity to maximize return on assets.
    It's not that he doesn't know what the roster can do - it's that he doesn't know what transaction opportunities there are. The questions are more along the lines of letting Gay/Lowry play out their contracts and enjoying some short-term success (if things go well), or moving them - for what? He doesn't know, and neither do you or I. Does he trade a guy for 10 cents on the dollar just to dump him a year early? Under what conditions - if the team is 1-20? 5-15? Who's he taking back? Longer contracts? Does anyone offer picks/prospects for one guaranteed year of Rudy Gay? Or if the team plays well, a couple guys show some improvement, and no great deals present themselves, what does he do in the next 1-2 years with Gay & Lowry? What if they want to re-sign for a reasonable amount? What if they want more? Less? Who knows!

    There are way, way too many variables that have yet to play out. I'd say he's going to wait and see what happens on and off the court - this is how he seems night-and-day different than Colangelo, who was more dead-set on imposing his will on the franchise regardless of what was happening on the court. Ujiri seems more flexible, more patient. That's how the 'Melo-drama played out.

    "Wait and see" doesn't equal "not having a plan." It would mean having Plan A, Plan B, Plan C, Plan D,....I'd envision Ujiri having a portfolio full if "if...then" contingency plans. They've got a list of players they want, transactions they'd like to pursue, impending FA's they plan on recruiting, etc.
    Last edited by S.R.; Mon Sep 16th, 2013 at 11:44 AM.

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