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Thread: Death of a Revolution

  1. #1
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    Default Death of a Revolution

    Colangelo's arrival to Toronto immediately breathed fresh air into a decaying organization and his experience with the Suns filled the clubs desperate need for legitimacy. We happily gave him free reign to blow up and remold the franchise in the manner he saw fit.

    Either by acknowledging Toronto's inability to sign marquee African American talent or by recognizing the exponential improvement in the talent of overseas players, Colangelo made a deliberate decision to break from the mold and go in another direction.

    He drafted Bargnani first overall (also the first European player ever picked first), signed Anthony Parker, Jorge Garbojosa and traded for Rasho. Combined with improved play of Jose, the Raptors went on to win the Atlantic and Colangelo won Executive of the year.

    Fast forward a couple years and now we have traded for Marco Belinelli, locked up Jose long term and now signed Hedo Turkolu to a five year deal.

    Garbo is out of the league, Parker is specialist on the Cavs, Jose is the highest paid back up point guard in the league, Marco can't hit a shot and Turk is mired in the biggest slump of his career.

    Would it be fair to call the European revolution a failure?

    I admire Colangelo for trying something new in a league that continually recycles ideas, players and coaches and is often terrified of innovation, but the writing is on the wall.

    You can win a title with European players in your core, but they can not be your core. The league has gotten too fast and too athletic for a team of slow white guys to realistically compete in the games up tempo pace.

    Separately Jose, Bargs, Marco and Turk offer up a valuable skill set that any team would be lucky to have. Combined thier weaknesses outweigh thier strengths and their defensive inadequacies are exploited instead of hidden.

    Colangelo's revolutionary thinking caused us to overpay for Jose/Hedo. Now in the biggest fleece market in NBA history, premier wing players are being sold for flea market prices. Shouldn't he have anticipated this? I know we had to try and contend early to limit the Bosh paranoia and I know hindsight is 20/20, but here we are in a buyer's market with nothing to sell.

    I like our team and still think we can get better. Going forward I hope BC has a couple cards yet to play, I just pray they don't go by the names Darko or Z.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star yertu damkule's Avatar
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    says it all...

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    Well... you might be able to win with a core of ... fast, white guys? We just don't have them.

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    i agree. turk, barg, jose. all slower guys who can knock down jumpers. except...they have been pretty inconsistent in knocking down their jumpers (belli too).

    which makes me miss parker even more, his three was almost always money.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    1. There was no consensus #1 when Bargs was drafted. Most draft scenarios had it between Aldridge & him. Would you prefer LaMarcus to Andrea? Of course we might both prefer Roy but I dont think being euro had too much to do with the choice.

    2. Jose was not a BC selection but his long term deal was. Again there was a choice between Jose and TJ. Who would you have chosen at the time?

    3. Garbo & Parker were f/a signings out of necessity and affordable when the cupboard was bare. I cannot recall what local options were available. Garbo played tough and ultimately paid the price for being stubborn about his injury. Parker just got old. We needed a more effective stater. I agree it hasnt turned out that way so far...see next point.

    4. Re Turk, he was the best f/a available SF. He happened to be a euro. I understand Ariza did not want to come and Artest went to the Lakers.

    5. Should we have kept Devean George rather than flipping him for Marco?

    My point being that having euros on the team is not entirely a pre ordained plan but happenstance in building the team.

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    So you don't think you could win a title with a starting five of Pau, Dirk, Kirilenko, Pietrus and Parker?

    I'm sorry, but this is an incredibly ignorant thread. And I'm guessing it wouldn't have been started had Bosh hit the last second shot in regulation. I tell you, some of you guys are bi-polar. There is medication for that, and you should be taking it.

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    Where to start?
    First off, not only could you not win a title with Pau, Dirk, AK, Pietrus and Parker, you'd be paying almost 70 million for a five player team that for the most part doesn't pass or shoot well.
    Secondly, Pietrus is black which is kind of cheating and all five players are agile defenders and don't exactly fit the European prototype.
    Thirdly, any team that has arguably the two best European players ever is going to pretty good.
    It would be like me saying you can't win a title with rookie players, which you can't and then you citing the 2003 draft and starting Hinrich,Wade, Bron, Melo and Bosh.
    The character attacks are unnecessary, but I guess I would rather be bi polar than Vito from Woodbridge. There is knowledge to be gained from the web, you should be using it.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Buddahfan's Avatar
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    This is very confusing

    In the NBA we have

    1. White European players
    2. White Australian players
    3. Black European players
    4. Asian players
    5. South American players

    Are we talking about International players or White European players or what?

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    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    Where to start?
    First off, not only could you not win a title with Pau, Dirk, AK, Pietrus and Parker, you'd be paying almost 70 million for a five player team that for the most part doesn't pass or shoot well.
    Secondly, Pietrus is black which is kind of cheating and all five players are agile defenders and don't exactly fit the European prototype.
    Thirdly, any team that has arguably the two best European players ever is going to pretty good.
    It would be like me saying you can't win a title with rookie players, which you can't and then you citing the 2003 draft and starting Hinrich,Wade, Bron, Melo and Bosh.
    The character attacks are unnecessary, but I guess I would rather be bi polar than Vito from Woodbridge. There is knowledge to be gained from the web, you should be using it.
    Apparently you didn't get that the point that all five players are agile defenders and don't exactly fit the European STEREOTYPE. The fact is that there are plenty of European players that don't fit the stereotype. If you're saying that you can't win a Championship with a bunch of slow white guys, no one is going to argue with you, just as you can't win a Championship with a bunch of slow black guys, no matter what country they are from.

    And I'm curious why selecting a black European is cheating. Is he not European enough for you? How about Manu Ginobili? He's white, but he's not even European.

    And by the way, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to win a team with Pau, Dirk, Kirilenko, Pietrus and Parker. They'd certainly be a contender, if not a favourite to win.

    If you're hoping to backup your bias here, keeping looking.

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    Quote TIm W. wrote: View Post
    I'm sorry, but this is an incredibly ignorant thread.
    Naaah.


    But you are kind of cheating if you're black. Okay this thread is incredibly ignorant. Mo Sales, Don Cherry would like his schtick back.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Prime's Avatar
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    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    Secondly, Pietrus is black which is kind of cheating
    lol.
    Different skin colour =/= different nationality.
    Thirdly, any team that has arguably the two best European players ever is going to pretty good.
    You make it seem as if any two above average players can seamlessly mesh together and be a dynamic duo right off the bat.

    The reality is that it doesn't happen. Take this season for example--Orlando: the DH12/Vinsanity ain't working.

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    Quote Prime wrote: View Post
    You make it seem as if any two above average players can seamlessly mesh together and be a dynamic duo right off the bat.

    The reality is that it doesn't happen. Take this season for example--Orlando: the DH12/Vinsanity ain't working.
    Not that I don't disagree, but Orlando's not a great example. This is not Vince in his prime.

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    We've gotten a little off track here. Maybe I was a little to broad with the European label, but the only euro's that BC has gone after are slow white guys jose, marco, rasho, bargs, hedo. Which was suppose to be my point.

    I actually love Pietrus and think he is the only guy who played good defense on Bron last year. I would gladly take him off the magic.

    Last time I checked you don't win a title with only five players and I don't think anyone ever confused Tony or Dirk as agile defenders. You could throw either player on the raps and I don't think the team improves that much. My whole point was that you if keep adding players who bring the same skills to the table and vice versa, expect the negatives to outweigh the positives. Early on in the season we were one of the worst defensive teams in history. I don't think that was a coincidence.

    Of all the combo's in the NBA you chose Howard and Wince? really...But to answer your question, yes if you throw any two all stars on the same team there is a very good chance they will seamlessly mesh together in under a season. The celtics with Paul, Ray and KG. The lakers with Kobe and Pau. The nuggets with Melo and Chancey. Shaq and Wade a couple years back.

    That is the fundamental concept of basketball. As long as the player isn't a full blown head case (see AI, Z-Bo, Starbury) and the coach isn't Sam Mitchell, two all star players with differing games will mesh rather seamlessly.

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    Quote TIm W. wrote: View Post
    Not that I don't disagree, but Orlando's not a great example. This is not Vince in his prime.
    Yes, but Vince was still playing at a borderline all-star level before this season.
    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post

    You could throw either player on the raps and I don't think the team improves that much. My whole point was that you if keep adding players who bring the same skills to the table and vice versa, expect the negatives to outweigh the positives. Early on in the season we were one of the worst defensive teams in history. I don't think that was a coincidence.
    So now you're suggesting that all Euros bring the same skillset to the NBA.

    Talk about ignorant and misinformed.
    Of all the combo's in the NBA you chose Howard and Wince? really...But to answer your question, yes if you throw any two all stars on the same team there is a very good chance they will seamlessly mesh together in under a season. The celtics with Paul, Ray and KG. The lakers with Kobe and Pau. The nuggets with Melo and Chancey. Shaq and Wade a couple years back.
    Yes, but how many of those experiments actually won a title? You obv. can't win a championship with just two players--even MJ and Pip had a solid supporting cast.

    To name a few, here's a small list of memorable duos in the past decade. Now you tell me exactly how many of these won a title (or even got past the conference finals for that matter):
    Dirk + Nash (Also: Dirk + Finley or Dirk + Jamison)
    Arenas + Jamison
    AI + Iguodala
    T-Mac + Yao
    Pierce + Antoine Walker
    Reggie Miller + J O'Neal

    That is the fundamental concept of basketball. As long as the player isn't a full blown head case (see AI, Z-Bo, Starbury) and the coach isn't Sam Mitchell, two all star players with differing games will mesh rather seamlessly.
    See also: Devin Harris and Brook Lopez

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    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    We've gotten a little off track here. Maybe I was a little to broad with the European label, but the only euro's that BC has gone after are slow white guys jose, marco, rasho, bargs, hedo. Which was suppose to be my point.
    Bargnani and Belinelli are slow white guys? Bargnani is one of the more athletic 7 footers out there and Belinelli would certainly not be considered slow.

    And Colangelo has simply grabbed the best players he could. You speak as if he has intentionally tried to go after this type of player. What about Ariza and Marion, who were Colangelo's choices before settling on Turkoglu?

    Quote mo-sales wrote: View Post
    Last time I checked you don't win a title with only five players and I don't think anyone ever confused Tony or Dirk as agile defenders. You could throw either player on the raps and I don't think the team improves that much. My whole point was that you if keep adding players who bring the same skills to the table and vice versa, expect the negatives to outweigh the positives. Early on in the season we were one of the worst defensive teams in history. I don't think that was a coincidence.
    If you're saying that a team of similarly skilled players would never contend for a Championship, then I dont think you'll get an argument from anyone. Unless, of course, those player's skills are similar to LeBron. And if you want me to suggest an All- European team that would be a favourite to win a Championship, I wouldn't have any trouble doing so.

    The problem with your argument is that it's not really valid, or at least not what you seem to mean. Your argument is not whether an All-European team could contend for a Championship, because it obviously could. It's not whether European players are too slow and unathletic, because thats obviously not true. Your argument seems to be that you can't have a bunch of similarly (and stereotypically) skilled European players could contend. And the answer is, as I mentioned before, you can't have a bunch of similarly skilled players, no matter where they are from, all on the same team because you need different skills an types of players on a team. Fortunately, the Raptors HAVE many different types of skilled players on the team. Do I think they would have done way better if, say, Ariza was signed instead of Turkoglu? Sure. But that's because you should have a great defender in the starting five, which the Raptors don't. WHat you don't seem to get, though, is that it's got nothing to do with where a player is from.

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