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Thread: DeMar DeRozan vs. Rip Hamilton

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    Default DeMar DeRozan vs. Rip Hamilton

    DeMar DeRozan is eerily similar to Rip Hamilton on the Detroit Pistons championship team... like twins.

    AGE: DeMar - 24, Rip - 25
    HEIGHT: DeMar - 6'7, Rip - 6'6
    SALARY: DeMar - 9.5M (16.2% of 58M Cap), Rip - 6.5M (15.1% of 43M Cap)

    All stats will be per 36 where applicable. DeMar played 36.7mpg compared to Rip's 35.5 so that's why. Also, if anyone cares, the Pistons and Raptors both played at the 24th fastest pace in these respective seasons (although overall league pace was lower back in 03-04).

    POINTS: DeMar - 17.7ppg, Rip - 17.9ppg
    REBOUNDS: DeMar - 3.8rpg, Rip - 3.6rpg
    ASSISTS: DeMar - 2.4apg, Rip - 4.0apg (Largely a result of being on the best team in the league)
    TURNOVERS: DeMar - 1.8topg, Rip - 2.7topg
    AST/TO RATIO: DeMar - 1.33, Rip - 1.48
    STEALS: DeMar - 0.9spg, Rip - 1.3spg
    BLOCKS: DeMar - 0.3bpg, Rip - 0.2bpg
    FGM/FGA: DeMar - 6.5/14.7 (44.5%), Rip - 6.9/15.1 (45.5%)
    FTM/FTA: DeMar - 4.2/5.1 (83.1%), Rip - 3.9/4.4 (86.8%)
    3PM/3PA: DeMar - 0.4/1.5 (28.3%), Rip - 0.2/0.9 (26.5%)

    PER - DeMar - 14.9, Rip - 16.8 (Difference in assists on Rip's part helps him here)
    TS% - DeMar - 52.3%, Rip - 52.2%
    eFG% - DeMar - 45.9%, Rip - 46.2%

    It's also interesting to look at their shooting splits (check Basketball Reference)

    Rip took 794 shots from mid range (51% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.
    DeRozan took 679 shots from mid range (55% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.

    The fact is these two guys at those stages of their careers were very similar players. Rip was actually less efficient earlier on in his career when he was with some awful-to-mediocre Washington teams (TS%s of 48.2, 50.8 and 51.1%). He's also getting a bit of a boost in this comparison by playing on the best team in the league, compared to DeMar playing on one of the worst.

    Also the season I was looking at for Rip here was his 5th season in the league compared to DeMar's 4th. At that point, as I showed earlier in the stats, he was still a bad three point shooter (18 made on 68 attempts for 26.5%). People will try and argue this by pointing to two earlier seasons in his career where he shot 36.4 and 38.1% from three, but these were also on small sample sizes (28 and 16 makes respectively). I think the fact that he shot 27.4% on 146 attempts in his 2nd season, and 26.9% on 119 attempts in his 4th are better indicators of how good he was at shooting from distance (he also shot 29% from 3 through his first 5 seasons).

    Despite this, he was able to shoot 37.5% from three through his last 8 seasons in the league, including a year where he shot 45.8% on 120 attempts. So I'm really not sure why DeMar wouldn't be able to improve his 3-ball as well.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar enlightenment's Avatar
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    Nice digging Xixak.

    The comparison is uncanny. Though Id say one thing that Rip had a concrete leg up on Demar is with defense. Something Derozan is sub-par at. Offensively though, Rip was a major cog in the championship team, even with favoring the worst shot in the league (mid-range). Demar needs to take after Rips career, and thats a huge compliment for anyone.
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Nice digging Xixak.

    The comparison is uncanny. Though Id say one thing that Rip had a concrete leg up on Demar is with defense. Something Derozan is sub-par at. Offensively though, Rip was a major cog in the championship team, even with favoring the worst shot in the league (mid-range). Demar needs to take after Rips career, and thats a huge compliment for anyone.
    I'm not even sure I'd say Rip is a better defender. Being part of one of the best defensive teams in NBA History is going to make anyone look like a better defender than they actually are.

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    in before matt

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    Seems appropriate DeMar torched him this year. Got under him.

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    Watching that makes me impatient. I want the season to have started yesterday.

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    Interesting numbers. But keep in mind that 2004 = hand checking. It was the end of that transitional era where they had the Shaq rule (more zone) but hadn't exterminated hand checking yet. Scoring was more difficult, teams were less efficient. It was the period of lockdown defense and iso offense.

    For numbers perspective, 2013 league average TS% is .535, 2004 - .516. So Rip was quite efficient for his era, while DeMar is below average.

    I'll give DeMar this, though -- he has to create much more than Rip ever did. If DeMar took the same shots as Rip, he might be fairly efficient too.

    Then again, that's where prime Rip was beautiful. He got a ton of those shots. To be able to score as much as he did despite being mainly an off the ball offensive player is special. It takes smart non stop movement off the ball and great stamina. Rip was an offensive work horse. Could DeMar develop into a player like that if he was asked to? Maybe. But he's a different type of player now, he's more of a secondary creator.
    Last edited by BobLoblaw; Sun Sep 22nd, 2013 at 08:19 PM.

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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Interesting numbers. But keep in mind that 2004 = hand checking. It was the end of that transitional era where they had the Shaq rule (more zone) but hadn't exterminated hand checking yet. Scoring was more difficult, teams were less efficient. It was the period of lockdown defense and iso offense.

    For numbers perspective, 2013 league average TS% is .535, 2004 - .516. So Rip was quite efficient for his era, while DeMar is below average.

    I'll give DeMar this, though -- he has to create much more than Rip ever did. If DeMar took the same shots as Rip, he might be fairly efficient too.

    Then again, that's where prime Rip was beautiful. He got a ton of those shots. To be able to score as much as he did despite being mainly an off the ball offensive player is special. It takes smart non stop movement off the ball and great stamina. Rip was an offensive work horse. Could DeMar develop into a player like that if he was asked to? Maybe. But he's a different type of player now, he's more of a secondary creator.
    These are all valid points. What I'll say about efficiency though is this. Back in 2004, league efficiency was lower not really because of hand-checking, but because way more one-on-one basketball was being played. A lot of teams were running the bulk of their offence through one guy, unlike nowadays where a more team-oriented, ball movement style of play is implemented. Last year in the NBA I believe only 9 guys averaged over 20ppg, in 2004 there were 17. Also teams didn't make as much use of the corner three (except for a select few like the Spurs with Bowen), and advanced stats didn't play as big a role in tactics.

    Basically, while teams may have been less efficient back then, making Rip above average... DeMar likely would've also been above average efficiency in that era (and he probably would be now too if he wasn't used like a primary scorer).

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    These are all valid points. What I'll say about efficiency though is this. Back in 2004, league efficiency was lower not really because of hand-checking, but because way more one-on-one basketball was being played. A lot of teams were running the bulk of their offence through one guy, unlike nowadays where a more team-oriented, ball movement style of play is implemented. Last year in the NBA I believe only 9 guys averaged over 20ppg, in 2004 there were 17. Also teams didn't make as much use of the corner three (except for a select few like the Spurs with Bowen), and advanced stats didn't play as big a role in tactics.

    Basically, while teams may have been less efficient back then, making Rip above average... DeMar likely would've also been above average efficiency in that era (and he probably would be now too if he wasn't used like a primary scorer).
    Why is DeMar special, or do you mean that all current NBA scorers are better and would rank higher if "teleported" to 2004?

    I doubt that DeMar would maintain his efficiency, since defense was better.

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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Interesting numbers. But keep in mind that 2004 = hand checking. It was the end of that transitional era where they had the Shaq rule (more zone) but hadn't exterminated hand checking yet. Scoring was more difficult, teams were less efficient. It was the period of lockdown defense and iso offense.

    For numbers perspective, 2013 league average TS% is .535, 2004 - .516. So Rip was quite efficient for his era, while DeMar is below average.

    I'll give DeMar this, though -- he has to create much more than Rip ever did. If DeMar took the same shots as Rip, he might be fairly efficient too.

    Then again, that's where prime Rip was beautiful. He got a ton of those shots. To be able to score as much as he did despite being mainly an off the ball offensive player is special. It takes smart non stop movement off the ball and great stamina. Rip was an offensive work horse. Could DeMar develop into a player like that if he was asked to? Maybe. But he's a different type of player now, he's more of a secondary creator.
    Some great comments Bobloblaw. I don't think it's quite fair to compare DeMar and Rip, just yet. Perhaps their stats fall in line, but Rip was a maestro with his mid range game and stamina. Defenders would look broken by the end of games after trying to keep up with Rip for 4 quarters. Detroit would run plays for him to come off multiple screens to get an open jump shot, just like Boston would do for Ray Allen, that is how automatic he seemed to be with his mid range game.

    If DeMar can master the mid range jump shot, with his size and jumping ability he could be deadly, but he has a long, long way to go imo.

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Some great comments Bobloblaw. I don't think it's quite fair to compare DeMar and Rip, just yet. Perhaps their stats fall in line, but Rip was a maestro with his mid range game and stamina. Defenders would look broken by the end of games after trying to keep up with Rip for 4 quarters. Detroit would run plays for him to come off multiple screens to get an open jump shot, just like Boston would do for Ray Allen, that is how automatic he seemed to be with his mid range game.

    If DeMar can master the mid range jump shot, with his size and jumping ability he could be deadly, but he has a long, long way to go imo.
    Rip took 794 shots from mid range (51% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.
    DeRozan took 679 shots from mid range (55% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.

    I don't think it has anything to do with DeMar having a long way to go as a mid-range jump-shooter. It has more to do with this team having a long-way to go in terms of sets, philosophy, and simply just having better talent. I think DeMar could be used in the Rip role perfectly, but we didn't really have that luxury because defenses were keying in on him before Gay showed up (especially since Lowry was hurt for a ton of games). Despite that his efficiency was virtually identical to Rip's.

    Basically the issue is that DeMar has been groomed to be Kobe when he really should be trying to be Rip. Both guys have similar skillsets, DeMar is stronger but Rip was probably quicker. This is why I hate reading that DeMar and Gay can't coexist because both of them need the ball. People need to understand that DeMar DOESN'T need the ball, in fact his skillset warrants playing him off it. Run him off screens for mid-range Js or quick slashes to the bucket, let him post up smaller guards, and also make use of the corner 3. Those skills are more valuable on a contender than simply having a 3+D player. 3+D is cool and all when LeBron is on your team and can orchestrate your entire offense for you, but ask Danny Green or even Paul George how much fun they had trying to use the in between game in the playoffs when they have 0 ability to do anything between 10-23 feet? That's where playoff games are won, mid-range.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Basically the issue is that DeMar has been groomed to be Kobe when he really should be trying to be Rip.
    This is a great point that I think alot of young players should take note of as well.

    Rip wasn't seen as a 'sexy' player, but he most certainly was effective.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    This is a great point that I think alot of young players should take note of as well.

    Rip wasn't seen as a 'sexy' player, but he most certainly was effective.
    i dont know where raptors fans keep getting these ideas from. demar hasnt been groomed to be anyone but demar. demar has his own playstyle as much as rip, kobe, anyone has.

    you all go off to use PER %s as a measure of how shit he is. you all talk like if his PER #s dont match kobe or lebron, he must obviously be the worst player on earth. people bitch about his 3pt performance, so what? since when are threes required to win games? He shot more threes than Tony Parker and Dwayne Wade, are you going to sit there and tell me they are also shit players?

    its stupid that people feel they can make a point when they nitpick specific PER statistics to make someone look bad. what ever happened to using real, physical numbers; ie POINTS, the thing that actually wins you games?

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3_leaders.html

    Top 20 in the entire league in FGM?
    7th in the league behind Lebron James in FTM?
    11th in the league in total points? 21st in PPG (0.1 behind rudy gay)?

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Rip took 794 shots from mid range (51% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.
    DeRozan took 679 shots from mid range (55% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.

    I don't think it has anything to do with DeMar having a long way to go as a mid-range jump-shooter. It has more to do with this team having a long-way to go in terms of sets, philosophy, and simply just having better talent. I think DeMar could be used in the Rip role perfectly, but we didn't really have that luxury because defenses were keying in on him before Gay showed up (especially since Lowry was hurt for a ton of games). Despite that his efficiency was virtually identical to Rip's.

    Basically the issue is that DeMar has been groomed to be Kobe when he really should be trying to be Rip. Both guys have similar skillsets, DeMar is stronger but Rip was probably quicker. This is why I hate reading that DeMar and Gay can't coexist because both of them need the ball. People need to understand that DeMar DOESN'T need the ball, in fact his skillset warrants playing him off it. Run him off screens for mid-range Js or quick slashes to the bucket, let him post up smaller guards, and also make use of the corner 3. Those skills are more valuable on a contender than simply having a 3+D player. 3+D is cool and all when LeBron is on your team and can orchestrate your entire offense for you, but ask Danny Green or even Paul George how much fun they had trying to use the in between game in the playoffs when they have 0 ability to do anything between 10-23 feet? That's where playoff games are won, mid-range.
    Nice thread Xixak, and like I said their numbers fall in line, but what I meant about DeMar has a long way to go is how he get to where Rip was, is the way he gets those numbers. Rip had a really high basketball IQ, he had a lot of moves in his arsenal, knew where he wanted to be to get his shot off, had a counter move for everything his defender threw at him etc. Those are thinks which DeMar has yet to exhibit imo.

    Totally agree about the Kobe comparison, however keep in my mind it's pretty well documented that DeMar idolized Kobe growing up and tried to tailor his game after Kobe's. So it's not just a matter of the organization not expecting it from DeMar, its DeMar realizing what his strengths are and working on those skills while understanding his limitations. Rip is not the sexy comparison as other have already mentioned, but does DeMar get that he should be working towards becoming more like Rip than Kobe? Can't just put the blame squarely on the organization.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Rip took 794 shots from mid range (51% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.
    DeRozan took 679 shots from mid range (55% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.

    I don't think it has anything to do with DeMar having a long way to go as a mid-range jump-shooter. It has more to do with this team having a long-way to go in terms of sets, philosophy, and simply just having better talent. I think DeMar could be used in the Rip role perfectly, but we didn't really have that luxury because defenses were keying in on him before Gay showed up (especially since Lowry was hurt for a ton of games). Despite that his efficiency was virtually identical to Rip's.

    Basically the issue is that DeMar has been groomed to be Kobe when he really should be trying to be Rip. Both guys have similar skillsets, DeMar is stronger but Rip was probably quicker. This is why I hate reading that DeMar and Gay can't coexist because both of them need the ball. People need to understand that DeMar DOESN'T need the ball, in fact his skillset warrants playing him off it. Run him off screens for mid-range Js or quick slashes to the bucket, let him post up smaller guards, and also make use of the corner 3. Those skills are more valuable on a contender than simply having a 3+D player. 3+D is cool and all when LeBron is on your team and can orchestrate your entire offense for you, but ask Danny Green or even Paul George how much fun they had trying to use the in between game in the playoffs when they have 0 ability to do anything between 10-23 feet? That's where playoff games are won, mid-range.

    I could not agree more with everything you said Xixak. You are definitely my favourite poster on this site. I do believe that nowadays people put the 3&D player on this ridiculous pedestal. I'm not saying they are not important to a team but you would swear they are like superstar players the way some people talk about them these days. Miami was able to keep Danny Green VERY quiet the last couple of games or the last game when they ran him off the three point line b/c he wasn't able to do anything else. Miami won that championship by taking midrange shots and nailing them. The further you get into the playoffs the harder it is to get open three point shots so only the versatile players survive. I remember when people used to get praised for having a midrange game because it was becoming a dying art. Players these days can only shoot the three or get all the way to the basket and guys like Kobe,Carmelo and Rip used to get so much praise for having a midrange game. Now guys like Derozan are considered shit players because they have one. I guess times have changed but I think it's unfair that a guy like Danny Green is considered a better player than DD when he is like the 5-6 option on the team, gets wide open looks constantly, is only asked to do very little and is on a championship team with hall of famers. What was he doing when he was playing for shit teams? Nothing. He was almost out of the league.

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    Quote GLF wrote: View Post
    I could not agree more with everything you said Xixak. You are definitely my favourite poster on this site. I do believe that nowadays people put the 3&D player on this ridiculous pedestal. I'm not saying they are not important to a team but you would swear they are like superstar players the way some people talk about them these days. Miami was able to keep Danny Green VERY quiet the last couple of games or the last game when they ran him off the three point line b/c he wasn't able to do anything else. Miami won that championship by taking midrange shots and nailing them. The further you get into the playoffs the harder it is to get open three point shots so only the versatile players survive. I remember when people used to get praised for having a midrange game because it was becoming a dying art. Players these days can only shoot the three or get all the way to the basket and guys like Kobe,Carmelo and Rip used to get so much praise for having a midrange game. Now guys like Derozan are considered shit players because they have one. I guess times have changed but I think it's unfair that a guy like Danny Green is considered a better player than DD when he is like the 5-6 option on the team, gets wide open looks constantly, is only asked to do very little and is on a championship team with hall of famers. What was he doing when he was playing for shit teams? Nothing. He was almost out of the league.
    I don't get the Danny Green point at all. Should DD be better than Green? Absolutely, he is a lotto pick and paid a lot more than Green. Green isn't exactly the ceiling that people are calling for Demar to reach.

    There is also a lot of statistical evidence that shows why the league is more focused on the 3 point shot and drives to the hoop. If that needs to be re-explained, then you need to do your research. Mid-Range shots are the least effective option on the court. Sure, it's great that Demar can hit that shot, but the mid-range needs to be a complimentary part of his game, not the focal point. Until Demar expands his game, people will continue to find serious flaws in his game.

    I think the Rip comparison is good statistically, and despite Rip being the superior player (and a favourite of mine), I think Demar's athleticism alone should put his goals above Rip. Rip had a motor that wouldn't quit, but he never had anything close to Demar's athleticism. If Demar worked hard (and the team ran those multi-pick sets for him), then Rip shouldn't be his goal, but rather the minimum expectation.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Rip took 794 shots from mid range (51% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.
    DeRozan took 679 shots from mid range (55% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.

    I don't think it has anything to do with DeMar having a long way to go as a mid-range jump-shooter. It has more to do with this team having a long-way to go in terms of sets, philosophy, and simply just having better talent. I think DeMar could be used in the Rip role perfectly, but we didn't really have that luxury because defenses were keying in on him before Gay showed up (especially since Lowry was hurt for a ton of games). Despite that his efficiency was virtually identical to Rip's.

    Basically the issue is that DeMar has been groomed to be Kobe when he really should be trying to be Rip. Both guys have similar skillsets, DeMar is stronger but Rip was probably quicker. This is why I hate reading that DeMar and Gay can't coexist because both of them need the ball. People need to understand that DeMar DOESN'T need the ball, in fact his skillset warrants playing him off it. Run him off screens for mid-range Js or quick slashes to the bucket, let him post up smaller guards, and also make use of the corner 3. Those skills are more valuable on a contender than simply having a 3+D player. 3+D is cool and all when LeBron is on your team and can orchestrate your entire offense for you, but ask Danny Green or even Paul George how much fun they had trying to use the in between game in the playoffs when they have 0 ability to do anything between 10-23 feet? That's where playoff games are won, mid-range.
    This comparison -outside of the similar stats- made no sense to me until I read your last paragraph here. I always thought that Rip was a far better natural shooter, but Derozan's worked his mid-range into a serviceable asset for the team.
    The thought that Derozan was groomed improperly from the get-go is an interesting one. I think his mechanics were so bad as a rookie that they were trying to make him Vince (or Kobe) due to the fact that he could dunk. I suppose hindsight is 20/20 but at this point he seems to have evolved into more of a shooter than dribble-penetrator, and as long as the coaching staff can see that there's probably something to work with going forward.
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    Excellent points Xixak. One I like (in particular) is Demar's ability to post smaller guards. Whereas Rip pretty much HAD to get open to get his shot off (something he was excellent at, almost as good as Allen or Reggie Reggie-the best), Demar hugely improved in this aspect last year. Hopefully:
    1. He builds on it;
    2. less likely to be double teamed due to Gay being here whole season.
    Both mean more opportunities.

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    There are some interesting comparison's, but the game has changed. I'm not sure Rip Hamilton's skill set would be seen as valuable as it was in the early 2000's.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Few stats perhaps worth noting:

    pace - Toronto 90.4 Detroit 87.9
    The raw data stated above is not just on less minutes a game, but also less possession a game.

    assist% - Demar 12% vs Rip Hamilton 22%
    (*I also don't think its fair claiming assist numbers were based off of the 'quality' of Detroits team that year - Detroit had an ortg of 102 that year vs Toronto's 105.9 this year. ie. Hamilton almost doubled Demar in assists despite a "worse" offensive team)

    DWS - Demar 1.4 Rip 4.4
    (thats unadjusted for minutes where Rip played less minutes)

    WS/48 - Demar .075 Rip .141

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