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Thread: DeMar DeRozan vs. Rip Hamilton

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Gay and DeMar are not great at moving the ball, statistics be dammed. That Pistons team was extremely cohesive on both ends of the floor. Pipe dream: if only DeMar and Gay improved their 3p% (even to 30-35%) and moved the ball/saw the floor better, I'd expect this team to move up to the 5-7 seed.

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  3. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Rip took 794 shots from mid range (51% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.
    DeRozan took 679 shots from mid range (55% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.

    I don't think it has anything to do with DeMar having a long way to go as a mid-range jump-shooter. It has more to do with this team having a long-way to go in terms of sets, philosophy, and simply just having better talent. I think DeMar could be used in the Rip role perfectly, but we didn't really have that luxury because defenses were keying in on him before Gay showed up (especially since Lowry was hurt for a ton of games). Despite that his efficiency was virtually identical to Rip's.

    Basically the issue is that DeMar has been groomed to be Kobe when he really should be trying to be Rip. Both guys have similar skillsets, DeMar is stronger but Rip was probably quicker. This is why I hate reading that DeMar and Gay can't coexist because both of them need the ball. People need to understand that DeMar DOESN'T need the ball, in fact his skillset warrants playing him off it. Run him off screens for mid-range Js or quick slashes to the bucket, let him post up smaller guards, and also make use of the corner 3. Those skills are more valuable on a contender than simply having a 3+D player. 3+D is cool and all when LeBron is on your team and can orchestrate your entire offense for you, but ask Danny Green or even Paul George how much fun they had trying to use the in between game in the playoffs when they have 0 ability to do anything between 10-23 feet? That's where playoff games are won, mid-range.
    Nice thread Xixak, and like I said their numbers fall in line, but what I meant about DeMar has a long way to go is how he get to where Rip was, is the way he gets those numbers. Rip had a really high basketball IQ, he had a lot of moves in his arsenal, knew where he wanted to be to get his shot off, had a counter move for everything his defender threw at him etc. Those are thinks which DeMar has yet to exhibit imo.

    Totally agree about the Kobe comparison, however keep in my mind it's pretty well documented that DeMar idolized Kobe growing up and tried to tailor his game after Kobe's. So it's not just a matter of the organization not expecting it from DeMar, its DeMar realizing what his strengths are and working on those skills while understanding his limitations. Rip is not the sexy comparison as other have already mentioned, but does DeMar get that he should be working towards becoming more like Rip than Kobe? Can't just put the blame squarely on the organization.

  4. #23
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Rip took 794 shots from mid range (51% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.
    DeRozan took 679 shots from mid range (55% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.

    I don't think it has anything to do with DeMar having a long way to go as a mid-range jump-shooter. It has more to do with this team having a long-way to go in terms of sets, philosophy, and simply just having better talent. I think DeMar could be used in the Rip role perfectly, but we didn't really have that luxury because defenses were keying in on him before Gay showed up (especially since Lowry was hurt for a ton of games). Despite that his efficiency was virtually identical to Rip's.

    Basically the issue is that DeMar has been groomed to be Kobe when he really should be trying to be Rip. Both guys have similar skillsets, DeMar is stronger but Rip was probably quicker. This is why I hate reading that DeMar and Gay can't coexist because both of them need the ball. People need to understand that DeMar DOESN'T need the ball, in fact his skillset warrants playing him off it. Run him off screens for mid-range Js or quick slashes to the bucket, let him post up smaller guards, and also make use of the corner 3. Those skills are more valuable on a contender than simply having a 3+D player. 3+D is cool and all when LeBron is on your team and can orchestrate your entire offense for you, but ask Danny Green or even Paul George how much fun they had trying to use the in between game in the playoffs when they have 0 ability to do anything between 10-23 feet? That's where playoff games are won, mid-range.

    I could not agree more with everything you said Xixak. You are definitely my favourite poster on this site. I do believe that nowadays people put the 3&D player on this ridiculous pedestal. I'm not saying they are not important to a team but you would swear they are like superstar players the way some people talk about them these days. Miami was able to keep Danny Green VERY quiet the last couple of games or the last game when they ran him off the three point line b/c he wasn't able to do anything else. Miami won that championship by taking midrange shots and nailing them. The further you get into the playoffs the harder it is to get open three point shots so only the versatile players survive. I remember when people used to get praised for having a midrange game because it was becoming a dying art. Players these days can only shoot the three or get all the way to the basket and guys like Kobe,Carmelo and Rip used to get so much praise for having a midrange game. Now guys like Derozan are considered shit players because they have one. I guess times have changed but I think it's unfair that a guy like Danny Green is considered a better player than DD when he is like the 5-6 option on the team, gets wide open looks constantly, is only asked to do very little and is on a championship team with hall of famers. What was he doing when he was playing for shit teams? Nothing. He was almost out of the league.

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  6. #24
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote GLF wrote: View Post
    I could not agree more with everything you said Xixak. You are definitely my favourite poster on this site. I do believe that nowadays people put the 3&D player on this ridiculous pedestal. I'm not saying they are not important to a team but you would swear they are like superstar players the way some people talk about them these days. Miami was able to keep Danny Green VERY quiet the last couple of games or the last game when they ran him off the three point line b/c he wasn't able to do anything else. Miami won that championship by taking midrange shots and nailing them. The further you get into the playoffs the harder it is to get open three point shots so only the versatile players survive. I remember when people used to get praised for having a midrange game because it was becoming a dying art. Players these days can only shoot the three or get all the way to the basket and guys like Kobe,Carmelo and Rip used to get so much praise for having a midrange game. Now guys like Derozan are considered shit players because they have one. I guess times have changed but I think it's unfair that a guy like Danny Green is considered a better player than DD when he is like the 5-6 option on the team, gets wide open looks constantly, is only asked to do very little and is on a championship team with hall of famers. What was he doing when he was playing for shit teams? Nothing. He was almost out of the league.
    I don't get the Danny Green point at all. Should DD be better than Green? Absolutely, he is a lotto pick and paid a lot more than Green. Green isn't exactly the ceiling that people are calling for Demar to reach.

    There is also a lot of statistical evidence that shows why the league is more focused on the 3 point shot and drives to the hoop. If that needs to be re-explained, then you need to do your research. Mid-Range shots are the least effective option on the court. Sure, it's great that Demar can hit that shot, but the mid-range needs to be a complimentary part of his game, not the focal point. Until Demar expands his game, people will continue to find serious flaws in his game.

    I think the Rip comparison is good statistically, and despite Rip being the superior player (and a favourite of mine), I think Demar's athleticism alone should put his goals above Rip. Rip had a motor that wouldn't quit, but he never had anything close to Demar's athleticism. If Demar worked hard (and the team ran those multi-pick sets for him), then Rip shouldn't be his goal, but rather the minimum expectation.

  7. #25
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote phez wrote: View Post
    i dont know where raptors fans keep getting these ideas from. demar hasnt been groomed to be anyone but demar. demar has his own playstyle as much as rip, kobe, anyone has.

    you all go off to use PER %s as a measure of how shit he is. you all talk like if his PER #s dont match kobe or lebron, he must obviously be the worst player on earth. people bitch about his 3pt performance, so what? since when are threes required to win games? He shot more threes than Tony Parker and Dwayne Wade, are you going to sit there and tell me they are also shit players?

    its stupid that people feel they can make a point when they nitpick specific PER statistics to make someone look bad. what ever happened to using real, physical numbers; ie POINTS, the thing that actually wins you games?

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...3_leaders.html

    Top 20 in the entire league in FGM?
    7th in the league behind Lebron James in FTM?
    11th in the league in total points? 21st in PPG (0.1 behind rudy gay)?
    All credibility is lost with reasoning based upon so much obvious emotion. We are all Raptor fans here, or pretty darn close. I've pointed out DD's flaws numerous times and I've also pointed out I'd love nothing more than to be wrong on him moving forward. The reality is if DD becomes more than he already is he will be the rare exception to the rule.... and I'd love nothing more for that to happen as a Raptor fan. However I'm certainly not going to let my hopes and wishes cloud my judgement and reality.

    The difference between Wade and Parker compared to DD is they excel at multiple areas. You are right that DD's three point deficiencies are irrelevant IF IF IF he contributed significantly in other ways.... but he doesn't. The issue with DD is that he only contributes points and it is not done in an efficient manner. He is average at best and if you remove free throws he is below average.

    The question you ask about using real physical numbers is interesting. Essentially you are saying numbers matter but only in the manner in which they prove my point - which is fair enough, I believe I've been guilty of that in the past. But in your question to only looking at real, physical numbers you open up quite a few concerns such as the manner in which the points are accumulated and the efficiency at doing so - which takes us back full circle.
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  8. #26
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    The comparison to Rip is a good one - from a particular perspective. I believe in his second or early third season I (and others) were talking on these forums about the benefits for DD to look at Rip. Others have already shown Rip to be a much better defender and facilitator.

    The only thing I would add is this: a person who resembles Robert DeNiro very closely is not going to be as good of an actor as him based on the appearance alone. Same with comparing DD to Rip. Sure they have similarities on their style of offensive game but a lot more goes in to the comparison of two players than running off screens for mid-range jumpers or long two's.

    When comparing what both players bring to both sides of the floor I don't think it is fair to compare Rip and DD. But if we are talking about running off screens, then yes, great comparison.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The comparison to Rip is a good one - from a particular perspective. I believe in his second or early third season I (and others) were talking on these forums about the benefits for DD to look at Rip. Others have already shown Rip to be a much better defender and facilitator.

    The only thing I would add is this: a person who resembles Robert DeNiro very closely is not going to be as good of an actor as him based on the appearance alone. Same with comparing DD to Rip. Sure they have similarities on their style of offensive game but a lot more goes in to the comparison of two players than running off screens for mid-range jumpers or long two's.

    When comparing what both players bring to both sides of the floor I don't think it is fair to compare Rip and DD. But if we are talking about running off screens, then yes, great comparison.
    Care to explain how it's not fair?

    You dismiss my entire analysis and provide 0 evidence to back up your point of view. I'm sure now you're going to give me your typical response of "I have 14,000 posts on these forums and have explained this countless times."

    There is zero evidence that Rip was a significantly better defender or facilitator than DeRozan (to say we can't compare them is ridiculous). I already pointed out that his jump in defensive win shares when he joined the Pistons wasn't a result of him suddenly becoming an elite defender, it's because he joined the best defensive team in the league (and one of the best in league history)... any player getting significant minutes on a team like that is going to have high defensive win shares. Just to make that crystal clear, take a look at his DWS of 0.6 in Washington, which is less than half of what DeMar's was last season (both players were on mediocre defensive teams).

    Rip got more assists when he joined the 03-04 Pistons (prior to that he got about as many as DeMar did), but he also turned it over nearly 3 times a game. It's not like he was a significantly better playmaker like a James Harden or DWade, he just used more possessions trying to create for teammates (and ended up creating for the other team almost as much as a result).

    Let's also not forget that I'm comparing Rips 5th season at age 25 to DeMar's 4th season at age 23 in the OP... and they're almost identical in terms of production and efficiency. I haven't seen a shred of evidence to prove otherwise, other than a few defensive statistics that are heavily influenced by how good of a team you play on. In case anyone doesn't know how DWS are calculated:

    Crediting Defensive Win Shares to players is based on Dean Oliver's Defensive Rating. Defensive Rating is an estimate of the player's points allowed per 100 defensive possessions (please see Oliver's book for further details). Here is a description of the process (once again using LeBron James in 2008-09 as an example):

    1. Calculate the Defensive Rating for each player. James's Defensive Rating in 2008-09 was 99.1.

    2. Calculate marginal defense for each player. Marginal defense is equal to (player minutes played / team minutes played) * (team defensive possessions) * (1.08 * (league points per possession) - ((Defensive Rating) / 100)). For James this is (3054 / 19780) * 7341 * ((1.08 * 1.083) - (99.1 / 100)) = 202.5. Note that this formula may produce a negative result for some players.

    3. Calculate marginal points per win. Marginal points per win reduces to 0.32 * (league points per game) * ((team pace) / (league pace)). For the 2008-09 Cavaliers this is 0.32 * 100.0 * (88.7 / 91.7) = 30.95.

    4. Credit Defensive Win Shares to the players. Defensive Win Shares are credited using the following formula: (marginal defense) / (marginal points per win). James gets credit for 202.5 / 30.95 = 6.54 Defensive Win Shares.
    As you can see the rating is controlled by the player's defensive rating (points per 100 possessions against the team while the player is on the floor... when you're on the floor with Ben & Rasheed, Chauncey and Prince... one of the best defensive units of all time for 30 or so minutes a game, this is going to look damn good.)

    It is also affected by the proportion of the team's minutes that the player plays. Rip plays 35 minutes per game, so his proportion is quite high.

  10. #28
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Care to explain how it's not fair?

    You dismiss my entire analysis and provide 0 evidence to back up your point of view. I'm sure now you're going to give me your typical response of "I have 14,000 posts on these forums and have explained this countless times."

    There is zero evidence that Rip was a significantly better defender or facilitator than DeRozan (to say we can't compare them is ridiculous). I already pointed out that his jump in defensive win shares when he joined the Pistons wasn't a result of him suddenly becoming an elite defender, it's because he joined the best defensive team in the league (and one of the best in league history)... any player getting significant minutes on a team like that is going to have high defensive win shares. Just to make that crystal clear, take a look at his DWS of 0.6 in Washington, which is less than half of what DeMar's was last season (both players were on mediocre defensive teams).

    Rip got more assists when he joined the 03-04 Pistons (prior to that he got about as many as DeMar did), but he also turned it over nearly 3 times a game. It's not like he was a significantly better playmaker like a James Harden or DWade, he just used more possessions trying to create for teammates (and ended up creating for the other team almost as much as a result).

    Let's also not forget that I'm comparing Rips 5th season at age 25 to DeMar's 4th season at age 23 in the OP... and they're almost identical in terms of production and efficiency. I haven't seen a shred of evidence to prove otherwise, other than a few defensive statistics that are heavily influenced by how good of a team you play on. In case anyone doesn't know how DWS are calculated:



    As you can see the rating is controlled by the player's defensive rating (points per 100 possessions against the team while the player is on the floor... when you're on the floor with Ben & Rasheed, Chauncey and Prince... one of the best defensive units of all time for 30 or so minutes a game, this is going to look damn good.)

    It is also affected by the proportion of the team's minutes that the player plays. Rip plays 35 minutes per game, so his proportion is quite high.
    I think Matt52 explained himself well enough. I certainly understood him. Personal pet peeve - when OP demands a point-by-point rebuttal, and completely dismisses any other type of response. There's plenty of content in Matt52's comment - why not respond to what he actually wrote instead of telling him what you want him to write? Self appointed senior content editor award goes to...

    (BTW your original posts were great. Very interesting discussion.)

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  12. #29
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    DeMar DeRozan is eerily similar to Rip Hamilton on the Detroit Pistons championship team... like twins.

    AGE: DeMar - 24, Rip - 25
    HEIGHT: DeMar - 6'7, Rip - 6'6
    SALARY: DeMar - 9.5M (16.2% of 58M Cap), Rip - 6.5M (15.1% of 43M Cap)

    All stats will be per 36 where applicable. DeMar played 36.7mpg compared to Rip's 35.5 so that's why. Also, if anyone cares, the Pistons and Raptors both played at the 24th fastest pace in these respective seasons (although overall league pace was lower back in 03-04).

    POINTS: DeMar - 17.7ppg, Rip - 17.9ppg
    REBOUNDS: DeMar - 3.8rpg, Rip - 3.6rpg
    ASSISTS: DeMar - 2.4apg, Rip - 4.0apg (Largely a result of being on the best team in the league)
    TURNOVERS: DeMar - 1.8topg, Rip - 2.7topg
    AST/TO RATIO: DeMar - 1.33, Rip - 1.48
    STEALS: DeMar - 0.9spg, Rip - 1.3spg
    BLOCKS: DeMar - 0.3bpg, Rip - 0.2bpg
    FGM/FGA: DeMar - 6.5/14.7 (44.5%), Rip - 6.9/15.1 (45.5%)
    FTM/FTA: DeMar - 4.2/5.1 (83.1%), Rip - 3.9/4.4 (86.8%)
    3PM/3PA: DeMar - 0.4/1.5 (28.3%), Rip - 0.2/0.9 (26.5%)

    PER - DeMar - 14.9, Rip - 16.8 (Difference in assists on Rip's part helps him here)
    TS% - DeMar - 52.3%, Rip - 52.2%
    eFG% - DeMar - 45.9%, Rip - 46.2%

    It's also interesting to look at their shooting splits (check Basketball Reference)

    Rip took 794 shots from mid range (51% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.
    DeRozan took 679 shots from mid range (55% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.

    The fact is these two guys at those stages of their careers were very similar players. Rip was actually less efficient earlier on in his career when he was with some awful-to-mediocre Washington teams (TS%s of 48.2, 50.8 and 51.1%). He's also getting a bit of a boost in this comparison by playing on the best team in the league, compared to DeMar playing on one of the worst.

    Also the season I was looking at for Rip here was his 5th season in the league compared to DeMar's 4th. At that point, as I showed earlier in the stats, he was still a bad three point shooter (18 made on 68 attempts for 26.5%). People will try and argue this by pointing to two earlier seasons in his career where he shot 36.4 and 38.1% from three, but these were also on small sample sizes (28 and 16 makes respectively). I think the fact that he shot 27.4% on 146 attempts in his 2nd season, and 26.9% on 119 attempts in his 4th are better indicators of how good he was at shooting from distance (he also shot 29% from 3 through his first 5 seasons).

    Despite this, he was able to shoot 37.5% from three through his last 8 seasons in the league, including a year where he shot 45.8% on 120 attempts. So I'm really not sure why DeMar wouldn't be able to improve his 3-ball as well.
    Nice effort, Xixak. Just for fun, here's another guy eerily similar to both those guys. I suppose it happens a lot if you are only comparing single seasons.

    Ricky "Mr. Triple Double" Davis @ age 26.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...davisri01.html


    POINTS: DeMar - 17.7ppg, Rip - 17.9ppg, Ricky: 17.0
    REBOUNDS: DeMar - 3.8rpg, Rip - 3.6rpg, Ricky: 3.9
    ASSISTS: DeMar - 2.4apg, Rip - 4.0apg, Ricky: 4.4
    TURNOVERS: DeMar - 1.8topg, Rip - 2.7topg, Ricky: 2.4topg
    AST/TO RATIO: DeMar - 1.33, Rip - 1.48, Ricky: 1.83
    STEALS: DeMar - 0.9spg, Rip - 1.3spg, Ricky: 1.0spg
    BLOCKS: DeMar - 0.3bpg, Rip - 0.2bpg, Ricky – 0.2bpg
    FGM/FGA: DeMar - 6.5/14.7 (44.5%), Rip - 6.9/15.1 (45.5%), Ricky – 6.6/14.6 (44.8%)
    FTM/FTA: DeMar - 4.2/5.1 (83.1%), Rip - 3.9/4.4 (86.8%), Ricky – 3.1/3.9 (79.7%)
    3PM/3PA: DeMar - 0.4/1.5 (28.3%), Rip - 0.2/0.9 (26.5%), Ricky – 0.8/2.7 (30.2%)

    PER - DeMar - 14.9, Rip - 16.8, Ricky – 15.6
    TS% - DeMar - 52.3%, Rip - 52.2%, Ricky – 52.1%
    eFG% - DeMar - 45.9%, Rip - 46.2%, Ricky - 47.6%

  13. #30
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Care to explain how it's not fair?

    You dismiss my entire analysis and provide 0 evidence to back up your point of view. I'm sure now you're going to give me your typical response of "I have 14,000 posts on these forums and have explained this countless times."

    There is zero evidence that Rip was a significantly better defender or facilitator than DeRozan (to say we can't compare them is ridiculous). I already pointed out that his jump in defensive win shares when he joined the Pistons wasn't a result of him suddenly becoming an elite defender, it's because he joined the best defensive team in the league (and one of the best in league history)... any player getting significant minutes on a team like that is going to have high defensive win shares. Just to make that crystal clear, take a look at his DWS of 0.6 in Washington, which is less than half of what DeMar's was last season (both players were on mediocre defensive teams).

    Rip got more assists when he joined the 03-04 Pistons (prior to that he got about as many as DeMar did), but he also turned it over nearly 3 times a game. It's not like he was a significantly better playmaker like a James Harden or DWade, he just used more possessions trying to create for teammates (and ended up creating for the other team almost as much as a result).

    Let's also not forget that I'm comparing Rips 5th season at age 25 to DeMar's 4th season at age 23 in the OP... and they're almost identical in terms of production and efficiency. I haven't seen a shred of evidence to prove otherwise, other than a few defensive statistics that are heavily influenced by how good of a team you play on. In case anyone doesn't know how DWS are calculated:



    As you can see the rating is controlled by the player's defensive rating (points per 100 possessions against the team while the player is on the floor... when you're on the floor with Ben & Rasheed, Chauncey and Prince... one of the best defensive units of all time for 30 or so minutes a game, this is going to look damn good.)

    It is also affected by the proportion of the team's minutes that the player plays. Rip plays 35 minutes per game, so his proportion is quite high.
    Did you read my post? Did you read others?
    I don't have anything to add that others have not already brought up so I didn't... namely Craiger.
    You also hit on numerous points in the OP that I have brought up before but don't feel the need or desire to again because it is obvious alternate views or opinions are not welcomed.

    Why isn't it fair? Your own post highlights it. Rip averaged 60% more assists per game while DD averaged 33% less turnovers. From individual player perspectives you are comparing players at different age and years experience with different roles. From a team perspective the supporting cast is not near the same in the comparison. When looking at DWS from Basketball-Reference.com Rip had 3.0 in year 4 and 4.4 in year 5 while last season DD had just 1.6. From year 4 onwards for the next 5 years Rip never had less than 7.3 WS while DD was at 4.7 last year. For me stats are about verifying the eye test. Think back to Raptor games, when over the last 4 years has DD ever guarded the other team's best perimeter defender? He hasn't. Same with creating for others. As for creating himself, a long 2 is about the only thing he has consistently shown he is able to create.

    There are too many differences that are trying to be glossed over or ignored based on one similarity in the comparison of Rip and DD. Again, just because someone looks like Robert DeNiro doesn't mean he is going to be a great actor. I think you have a great OP but comparing player to player is a stretch, in my opinion. As I said previously, if you are comparing the mid-range game of each player, then I think that is more than fair.... but that is where the comparison ends.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Mon Sep 23rd, 2013 at 05:48 PM.
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Nice effort, Xixak. Just for fun, here's another guy eerily similar to both those guys. I suppose it happens a lot if you are only comparing single seasons.

    Ricky "Mr. Triple Double" Davis @ age 26.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...davisri01.html


    POINTS: DeMar - 17.7ppg, Rip - 17.9ppg, Ricky: 17.0
    REBOUNDS: DeMar - 3.8rpg, Rip - 3.6rpg, Ricky: 3.9
    ASSISTS: DeMar - 2.4apg, Rip - 4.0apg, Ricky: 4.4
    TURNOVERS: DeMar - 1.8topg, Rip - 2.7topg, Ricky: 2.4topg
    AST/TO RATIO: DeMar - 1.33, Rip - 1.48, Ricky: 1.83
    STEALS: DeMar - 0.9spg, Rip - 1.3spg, Ricky: 1.0spg
    BLOCKS: DeMar - 0.3bpg, Rip - 0.2bpg, Ricky – 0.2bpg
    FGM/FGA: DeMar - 6.5/14.7 (44.5%), Rip - 6.9/15.1 (45.5%), Ricky – 6.6/14.6 (44.8%)
    FTM/FTA: DeMar - 4.2/5.1 (83.1%), Rip - 3.9/4.4 (86.8%), Ricky – 3.1/3.9 (79.7%)
    3PM/3PA: DeMar - 0.4/1.5 (28.3%), Rip - 0.2/0.9 (26.5%), Ricky – 0.8/2.7 (30.2%)

    PER - DeMar - 14.9, Rip - 16.8, Ricky – 15.6
    TS% - DeMar - 52.3%, Rip - 52.2%, Ricky – 52.1%
    eFG% - DeMar - 45.9%, Rip - 46.2%, Ricky - 47.6%
    Off topic and I apologize for that but sometimes things are too funny to not take a moment to remember.

    LOL - Sloan's comments are great.



    8 years later:

    In an interview posted on NBA.com, Davis talked about his reputation as a selfish player.

    "I did some bad things, but the only thing I regret is my triple-double. But everything else comes with experience. People forget I got drafted when I was 17, so I had a lot of young ‘myself-myself’ attitude, and now it’s more about being part of a team, and more of what I can do to help the team."

    http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports...ill-fated.html
    "You don’t know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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    Good call admins

  16. #33
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    We should mention DeMars stats in every thread it makes things a lot more long winded Admins and Mods now know the secret to high post count on the forums its either DeMar or JV views and posts will be through the roof with an hour.

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    Raptors Republic Starter phez's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Not hating on Demar, but if he is an inefficient shooter, then he may be scoring in bunches, but there are only so many shots a game. If he and Rudy shoot over 50% of the shots, but their poor shooting percentage means that the Raps hit a lower % of their total shots, then if both teams shoot 95 times, the other team wins.

    That's one of the reasons to push DeMar to improve his 3pt %. You can miss more and still score at a higher rate because each shot is worth more. Just under 24 ft to the basket for most of the arc. So why is DeMar shooting from 21 ft out at a 38% clip when he could be shooting from 24 at 30%, and score 50% more for each shot that goes in? Just bad decision making. Or why shoot from inside the top of the arc at 22 ft when he could be shooting a 3 pt shot from the base line at 22 ft?

    there's no hate in these questions, just wondering why the right decisions aren't being made.
    If everyone could take threes at a ridiculous clip then no one would ever take shots from inside the line. But that's obviously not true. You never hear such harsh criticism about the other top scorers in the league.

    You look at those other scorers in the league (take the top 21 including JR smith), all but 5 them average under 2 3pt made a game. That's only a difference of 2 pts.

    Again what the hell is the point of arguing and comparing %s when in the end the actual total, physical difference is literally nothing.

    So what's next?
    He's a volume shooter, his numbers are inflated by his minutes? Doesn't contribute much in other fields? How about I pull out another all-star, say Carmelo Anthony? Is Demar any more or any less of a contributor to melo? Demar has more steals, more assists, less fouls, less turnovers (though they both average about the same in ast, stl per game).

    Melo contributes in scoring and thats what hes getting paid for. The way you people talk here make it sounds like demar needs to lead every single god damn stat in the league for him to earn the respect to stay on our shitty little team here in toronto.

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    Gay and DeMar are not great at moving the ball, statistics be dammed. That Pistons team was extremely cohesive on both ends of the floor. Pipe dream: if only DeMar and Gay improved their 3p% (even to 30-35%) and moved the ball/saw the floor better, I'd expect this team to move up to the 5-7 seed.
    I agree but how much of that is the quality of team mates? Anyone remember Rip when he was with Washington? I remember Jordan not liking his game pretty publicly. He was traded to a skill filled cohesive team and THEN he became the player we all admire.

    There's a lot there that DeMar could learn studying Rip, but there is also a lot that the Raps front office can learn from studying the make up of that team...

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  20. #36
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    I agree but how much of that is the quality of team mates? Anyone remember Rip when he was with Washington? I remember Jordan not liking his game pretty publicly. He was traded to a skill filled cohesive team and THEN he became the player we all admire.

    There's a lot there that DeMar could learn studying Rip, but there is also a lot that the Raps front office can learn from studying the make up of that team...
    The bold part is quite interesting, as it has been brought up by posters on both the 'pro' and 'anti' side of the DeRozan argument.

    First, management needs to ask themselves whether DeRozan is a good enough player for them to change/build the team around (remember, they already made that mistake with both Bosh & Bargnani). The other option would be to trade DeRozan and keep the rest of the team's core intact. Of course, that is assuming they aren't going to ultimately go with a full rebuild around/with Valanciunas at some point this season.

    Both are viable options, which are dependent partly on weighing what each option would take (giving up in trade) and return (in trade), to compare the net changes to the team. Without knowing what each player would be able to return in trade, it's hard to debate, since we're comparing the unknown team with DeRozan to the unknown team without DeRozan. A lot has to do with how well Gay and Lowry perform in the first half of the season too.

    I am super excited to see what direction MU decides to take this team because, one way or another, I'd be willing to bet that the roster will look significantly different this time next year (and I mean the core, not just all the one-year contract guys he signed this offseason).

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    Quote Thornbury wrote: View Post
    Good call admins

    They call me Mr. Clean

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    The bold part is quite interesting, as it has been brought up by posters on both the 'pro' and 'anti' side of the DeRozan argument.

    First, management needs to ask themselves whether DeRozan is a good enough player for them to change/build the team around (remember, they already made that mistake with both Bosh & Bargnani). The other option would be to trade DeRozan and keep the rest of the team's core intact. Of course, that is assuming they aren't going to ultimately go with a full rebuild around/with Valanciunas at some point this season.

    Both are viable options, which are dependent partly on weighing what each option would take (giving up in trade) and return (in trade), to compare the net changes to the team. Without knowing what each player would be able to return in trade, it's hard to debate, since we're comparing the unknown team with DeRozan to the unknown team without DeRozan. A lot has to do with how well Gay and Lowry perform in the first half of the season too.

    I am super excited to see what direction MU decides to take this team because, one way or another, I'd be willing to bet that the roster will look significantly different this time next year (and I mean the core, not just all the one-year contract guys he signed this offseason).
    Completely disagree with the bold. DeRozan doesn't make "build the team around" money. He makes #3 option money. Guys that you build teams around get max deals (and sometimes even 2nd option caliber players like Gay, Paul George, etc get max deals as well). Take a look at the Warriors, they have 4 players on the roster who make more money than DeRozan. Suggesting that DeRozan has to be the centerpiece just because he makes 9.5M a year is a bit odd.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Completely disagree with the bold. DeRozan doesn't make "build the team around" money. He makes #3 option money. Guys that you build teams around get max deals (and sometimes even 2nd option caliber players like Gay, Paul George, etc get max deals as well). Take a look at the Warriors, they have 4 players on the roster who make more money than DeRozan. Suggesting that DeRozan has to be the centerpiece just because he makes 9.5M a year is a bit odd.
    I never understood the Anti-Demar bashing because he's not an All-Star yet. Since when does your whole starting 5 have to be an all-star to have contending team. This team has a lot more to worry about before upgrading Demar.

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    I really think people are putting too much emphasis on the ability to shoot the three at the shooting guard position. Yes it's nice, but Memphis and Indiana got to the conference finals without it (and since we're talking about them in this thread, the 03-04 Pistons won the title without it). Lance Stephenson was OK shooting 33% on 62 makes, and Tony Allen was terrible and shot 13% on 3 makes. Neither team really has elite 3 point shooting at any other position (the closest to that would be George on the Pacers, who shot 36% on 6 attempts per game... more volume than efficiency really). Both Memphis and Indiana made less three pointers per game than we did (16th and 30th in the league in makes, we were 15th), and both teams were in the bottom 1/3 of the league in three point shooting percentage.

    What I'd like to see with DeMar is have him used more off-ball coming off screens, but I'd like those screens to be set lower like what Detroit did with Rip. It'd be nice to see more of his mid-range Js come from 10-16 feet rather than 16-23 feet. That would improve his efficiency, increase his chances of getting fouled and also improve our chances of getting a rebound off a miss.

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