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Thread: DeMar DeRozan vs. Rip Hamilton

  1. #41
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Completely disagree with the bold. DeRozan doesn't make "build the team around" money. He makes #3 option money. Guys that you build teams around get max deals (and sometimes even 2nd option caliber players like Gay, Paul George, etc get max deals as well). Take a look at the Warriors, they have 4 players on the roster who make more money than DeRozan. Suggesting that DeRozan has to be the centerpiece just because he makes 9.5M a year is a bit odd.
    You completely missed the context of my message, since I was replying to a specific thought blackjitsu had. Go back and read both posts before getting so defensive.

    Also, our conversation had nothing to do with salary or 3-pt shooting (per the rant in your post that followed the post I quoted). No wonder every discussion about DeRozan becomes such a gong-show!
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Sep 24th, 2013 at 11:13 PM.

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    Quote Dino4life wrote: View Post
    I never understood the Anti-Demar bashing because he's not an All-Star yet. Since when does your whole starting 5 have to be an all-star to have contending team. This team has a lot more to worry about before upgrading Demar.
    This... DeMar is not paid all-star money. Could someone please name one all-star who isn't on a rookie contract that makes less money than him? DeMar is paid about as much as the 4th or 5th highest paid player on most contenders.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    This... DeMar is not paid all-star money. Could someone please name one all-star who isn't on a rookie contract that makes less money than him? DeMar is paid about as much as the 4th or 5th highest paid player on most contenders.
    I am not anti-Demar in anyway, shape or form. The issue with him is whether or not Demar is actually a net positive for the team, especially when defense is taken into account. The jury is out on that one, IMO. The advanced metrics certainly don't seem to favor him either. Also, his offense is still somewhat limited, especially a skill (shooting from distance) that should be a given these days for his position. So, all things considered, it's reasonable for many to have the opinion that Demar is a fairly replaceable player, likely at a much better salary, and not a core piece to be built around.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I really think people are putting too much emphasis on the ability to shoot the three at the shooting guard position. Yes it's nice, but Memphis and Indiana got to the conference finals without it (and since we're talking about them in this thread, the 03-04 Pistons won the title without it). Lance Stephenson was OK shooting 33% on 62 makes, and Tony Allen was terrible and shot 13% on 3 makes. Neither team really has elite 3 point shooting at any other position (the closest to that would be George on the Pacers, who shot 36% on 6 attempts per game... more volume than efficiency really). Both Memphis and Indiana made less three pointers per game than we did (16th and 30th in the league in makes, we were 15th), and both teams were in the bottom 1/3 of the league in three point shooting percentage.

    What I'd like to see with DeMar is have him used more off-ball coming off screens, but I'd like those screens to be set lower like what Detroit did with Rip. It'd be nice to see more of his mid-range Js come from 10-16 feet rather than 16-23 feet. That would improve his efficiency, increase his chances of getting fouled and also improve our chances of getting a rebound off a miss.
    I love that you stand up for Derozan but you probably shouldn't have brought Tony Allen or Lance Stephenson up. All the DD bashers are going to say that they are elite defenders so that's why they can get away with not having a 3 point shot. Sometimes I feel it's just a waste of time but I love all your posts and I'm a Derozan backer as well so keep it up!

  6. #45
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    Xixak neither Calgary nor I were bashing DeMar. We were just looking at how when Rip was in Washington he was ranked pretty badly. Then when he was traded to a team that fit his style of play he thrived.

    Rip was the top scorer of those teams but no one would have him ranked higher than Sheed, or Chauncy, or the 'Fro... That said maybe DeMar on the current Raps is more like Rip in Washington and maybe the front office needs to decide whether they want to structure a team into those Pistons (a team where DeMar's skills fit more), OR move him so that he can thrive elsewhere.

    Neither one of us were disregarding the guy-- more so kind of curious about DeMar's fit on the Raptors as constructed. It MIGHT be easier, for instance, to move DeMar and find a SG who fits the starting lineup better than trading Lowry and finding a starting PG that better matches DeMar's style of play... Comparing Rip and DeMar in a vacuum without looking at the work the front office needs to make for him to thrive seems a bit short sighted IMO.

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    MOD NOTE: Being from Compton is not a measurable basketball statistic. Being a hoodrat does not affect your 3pt % and is also irrelavent. The only context to call someone a hoodrat is in reference to their socio-economic background and even though you think it might not be racist, it has racist connotations. As a moderator my tendancy is toward giving freedom of speech a long leash. I'm posting this comment here as a reminder to everyone that posts of this nature wont be tolerated. So please, FROM THIS POST ON, stick to the discussion outlined.
    Last edited by thead; Wed Sep 25th, 2013 at 10:57 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Ah, the never-ending Derozan debate...


    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I really think people are putting too much emphasis on the ability to shoot the three at the shooting guard position. Yes it's nice, but Memphis and Indiana got to the conference finals without it (and since we're talking about them in this thread, the 03-04 Pistons won the title without it). Lance Stephenson was OK shooting 33% on 62 makes, and Tony Allen was terrible and shot 13% on 3 makes. Neither team really has elite 3 point shooting at any other position (the closest to that would be George on the Pacers, who shot 36% on 6 attempts per game... more volume than efficiency really). Both Memphis and Indiana made less three pointers per game than we did (16th and 30th in the league in makes, we were 15th), and both teams were in the bottom 1/3 of the league in three point shooting percentage.

    What I'd like to see with DeMar is have him used more off-ball coming off screens, but I'd like those screens to be set lower like what Detroit did with Rip. It'd be nice to see more of his mid-range Js come from 10-16 feet rather than 16-23 feet. That would improve his efficiency, increase his chances of getting fouled and also improve our chances of getting a rebound off a miss.
    I think you are off-base here. People don't care if it is specifically the SG position that shoots 3, but rather anyone in the starting 5. It goes back to the over-lap of DD and Gay (and to some extent Lowry).

    You mention 2 good examples of shooting guards on good teams that are worse 3 pt shooters, but they play on two of the best defensive teams and are very good (Stephenson) to elite (Allen) defenders. More importantly though, is that those teams are built differently. They have low post scorers at the PF position (David West and Z-Bo) who can slow the game down and command a double team. They both have elite centers who can score around the hoop (Roy Hibbert and Marc Gasol). We don't have a single player that has yet proven to be a low post scorer (JV is on his way, but still has to prove it in the reg season), and without the ability to stretch the floor with the 3, the next best way to create additional space is by forcing the Defence to double the post (creates defensive rotations, cutting lanes, open looks). Without open space, it is very hard for your current roster of players to get good looks, so instead we end up with a tough look, an out of control drive hoping for a foul, or a wide open Landry Fields; none of which are good scoring options.

    You also mention the '04 Pistons as a not-great shooting team because Rip wasn't a dominant 3 pt shooter, but again, it's about the context of the roster construction. Chauncey Billups shot 38.8%, Tayshaun shot 36.3%, Sheed shot 31.9% all in the starting line-up, plus Mehmet Okur came off the bench and shot 37.5% as a big. That doesn't even include role players who shot over 30%. So for Rip, shooting 26.5% as the 4th best 3pt option wasn't a big deal for the team.

    For the Raps, Lowry and Gay shot 36% and 33% respectively, which in today's NBA isn't great numbers, but is workable, if they can get open looks. But those looks are hard to come by without the low post presence that the Pacers, Grizzles or those Pistons (Sheed on the block). If JV can develop into the low post scoring machine we all hope he can, then yes, Demar's lack of 3pt shooting becomes less of a liability, but in the grand scheme of things, do you want your starting core of players to be "less of a liability" or an assest? Demar's greatest strength (midrange shooting and free throws) only affects the game IF JV can change the offence. Not exactly what I want for $9.5M.

    Looking at the one position in a vacuum is a great way to make your argument, but basketball is a team game, and the way a roster is constructed can, like the Pacers, Grizzlies, and '04 Pistons, over-come supreme talent. Unfortunately, under the BC era, we had neither.
    Last edited by Axel; Wed Sep 25th, 2013 at 08:03 AM.

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  12. #48
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    This... DeMar is not paid all-star money. Could someone please name one all-star who isn't on a rookie contract that makes less money than him? DeMar is paid about as much as the 4th or 5th highest paid player on most contenders.
    But he is paid 2x the average and 3-4x the median salary of an NBA player.

    He might not be paid all-star money but unless he shows significant growth this year he is overpaid because he only does one thing and average at that.

    Value is not a word that can be attributed to DD at this point in time. Maybe he grows in to his contract like Amir did.... or maybe he never lives up like Andrea did. Time will tell.
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  14. #49
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    This debate is about as stale as the 3 year old Cap'n Crunch in my kitchen cupboard.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    This debate is about as stale as the 3 year old Cap'n Crunch in my kitchen cupboard.
    Agreed.

    I also don't think people are listening/reading the actual counter points. After all the back and forth over the last 5-6 months, how anyone can still come back with an argument based on solely, "DD can't shoot the 3 but lots of successful SG haven't been able to either" or "DD is not making all-star money" or "But he scored the 11th most total points last season!" is really not interested in reading what others with a different perspective are saying.... but yet that is still the main talking points.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    This debate is about as stale as the 3 year old Cap'n Crunch in my kitchen cupboard.
    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Agreed.

    I also don't think people are listening/reading the actual counter points. After all the back and forth over the last 5-6 months, how anyone can still come back with an argument based on solely, "DD can't shoot the 3 but lots of successful SG haven't been able to either" or "DD is not making all-star money" or "But he scored the 11th most total points last season!" is really not interested in reading what others with a different perspective are saying.... but yet that is still the main talking points.
    Ugh, it's stale on both sides,,,,,,,, and in general, one side is no more guilty of ignoring/discounting the other side, as the other.

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  19. #52
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    To get back to the original question. the flaw may lie in the question itself. Whenever we try to compare player A to player B based on a similar history and try to extrapolate results, we are chasing fool's gold (copyright Matt, 2013). When you pick a comparison player who went on to have atypical results, you are choosing an outlier, not a mean. Fine to do but it's not indicative of much. To put any weight behind this, there would also have to be player C, D, E etc. who followed a similar career arc to this point. My gut feeling is that those players went on to have career 3pt% below 30%...but we don't know because we don't care about them. It's great that lightning struck for Rip....it may strike again for DeMar, just don't count on it.

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  21. #53
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Rip took 794 shots from mid range (51% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.
    DeRozan took 679 shots from mid range (55% of his total shot attempts) and converted 40.6% of them.

    I don't think it has anything to do with DeMar having a long way to go as a mid-range jump-shooter. It has more to do with this team having a long-way to go in terms of sets, philosophy, and simply just having better talent. I think DeMar could be used in the Rip role perfectly, but we didn't really have that luxury because defenses were keying in on him before Gay showed up (especially since Lowry was hurt for a ton of games). Despite that his efficiency was virtually identical to Rip's.

    Basically the issue is that DeMar has been groomed to be Kobe when he really should be trying to be Rip. Both guys have similar skillsets, DeMar is stronger but Rip was probably quicker. This is why I hate reading that DeMar and Gay can't coexist because both of them need the ball. People need to understand that DeMar DOESN'T need the ball, in fact his skillset warrants playing him off it. Run him off screens for mid-range Js or quick slashes to the bucket, let him post up smaller guards, and also make use of the corner 3. Those skills are more valuable on a contender than simply having a 3+D player. 3+D is cool and all when LeBron is on your team and can orchestrate your entire offense for you, but ask Danny Green or even Paul George how much fun they had trying to use the in between game in the playoffs when they have 0 ability to do anything between 10-23 feet? That's where playoff games are won, mid-range.
    This comparison -outside of the similar stats- made no sense to me until I read your last paragraph here. I always thought that Rip was a far better natural shooter, but Derozan's worked his mid-range into a serviceable asset for the team.
    The thought that Derozan was groomed improperly from the get-go is an interesting one. I think his mechanics were so bad as a rookie that they were trying to make him Vince (or Kobe) due to the fact that he could dunk. I suppose hindsight is 20/20 but at this point he seems to have evolved into more of a shooter than dribble-penetrator, and as long as the coaching staff can see that there's probably something to work with going forward.
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Not hating on Demar, but if he is an inefficient shooter, then he may be scoring in bunches, but there are only so many shots a game. If he and Rudy shoot over 50% of the shots, but their poor shooting percentage means that the Raps hit a lower % of their total shots, then if both teams shoot 95 times, the other team wins.

    That's one of the reasons to push DeMar to improve his 3pt %. You can miss more and still score at a higher rate because each shot is worth more. Just under 24 ft to the basket for most of the arc. So why is DeMar shooting from 21 ft out at a 38% clip when he could be shooting from 24 at 30%, and score 50% more for each shot that goes in? Just bad decision making. Or why shoot from inside the top of the arc at 22 ft when he could be shooting a 3 pt shot from the base line at 22 ft?

    there's no hate in these questions, just wondering why the right decisions aren't being made.
    I think there's a lot of things that go on in a players' head once they step outside that line. That's why you see the better (or, at least more confident shooters) never looking at their feet and just zoning in on the rim. Demar has gotten so comfortable with his mid-range that if he knows he's inside the line he can just pull up in rhythm, but once he crosses the 3pt threshold the ol' gears start turning. We just need the coaching staff to erase those extra thoughts and make him look at the rim when he shoots regardless of whether he's in 2pt or 3pt range.
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    There's also one big stat that the OP neglected. If you compare Rip and DD's season stats from the season they were 23 yrs old, both were on relatively equal teams talent wise (Wizards, so factoring out the Pistons Championship imbalance), their stats are still similar except for one glaring difference.

    Rip shot 38.1% from the 3-point line that season. He shot much less frequently than Derozan (half as much per 36), but hit much better than Demar's 28.3%.

    Demar has never come close to that yet, so while Rip was shooting lower %s at age 25 (he would shoot a career high of 45.8% and has a career avg of 37.4%) that would match with Derozan, he was shooting better than Derozan already at the point of the OP's comparison.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    This debate is about as stale as the 3 year old Cap'n Crunch in my kitchen cupboard.
    And why did the box of Cap'n Crunch last three years? Did it get lost behind the dried apples or that honking big jar of granola?
    Last edited by Puffer; Wed Sep 25th, 2013 at 10:55 AM.

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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    And why did the box of Cap'n Crunch last three years? Did it get lost behind the dried apples or that honking big jar of granola?
    I'm in the middle of conducting an experiment on which will happen first:

    1. Artificial sugars turning green

    or

    2. DeMar learning to shoot

    It's neck and neck so far.....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    They didn't want Demar to take jump shots in his rookie season, his job was just to be the most athletic person on the floor and get to the rim whenever he gets the ball in his hands. I can't really say that philosophy made him a poor shooter.
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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    I like Captain Crunch and 3 years old or not it is likely still good

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    There's also one big stat that the OP neglected. If you compare Rip and DD's season stats from the season they were 23 yrs old, both were on relatively equal teams talent wise (Wizards, so factoring out the Pistons Championship imbalance), their stats are still similar except for one glaring difference.

    Rip shot 38.1% from the 3-point line that season. He shot much less frequently than Derozan (half as much per 36), but hit much better than Demar's 28.3%.

    Demar has never come close to that yet, so while Rip was shooting lower %s at age 25 (he would shoot a career high of 45.8% and has a career avg of 37.4%) that would match with Derozan, he was shooting better than Derozan already at the point of the OP's comparison.
    Rip made 16 threes that year on 42 attempts.

    I could isolate 16 made threes for DeRozan from last year's game log and say he went 16-26 on those for 62%.

    Or I could say he made 17 of his last 51 threes (more attempts and makes than Rip) for 33%.

    Sample size is a bit too small. I think it's more realistic to look at Rip's percentages for his first 5 years, and see that he shot a little under 30% so he was by no means a good three point shooter. And DeMar becoming a good three point shooter wasn't the point of this thread, I was just saying that it's clearly a possibility.

    The main point was to compare Rip, a player who was very useful on a championship caliber team, using up the same % of the team's cap as DeMar, to DD.

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