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Thread: Raptors Defensive Issues - BBallBreakdown

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Default Raptors Defensive Issues - BBallBreakdown

    I don't know how to embed a link, maybe a super mod could help?

    http://bballbreakdown.com/2015/02/16/unpicking-the-problem-with-the-toronto-raptors-defense/

    Anyway, basically JV is slow and a defensive liability in Casey's defensive system. Not to mention DeMar is the best defender in the system and the rest of the personnel don't fit it so well.

    Discuss...

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    Raptors Republic Veteran rocwell's Avatar
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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer white men can't jump's Avatar
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    This has already been discussed at length.

    JV is too slow for this system. The vast majority of Cs would be. Casey even has said he wouldn't even put Chandler in for some of those 4th Qs where he wants his "scrambling D".

    Most of our personnel aren't good for it.

    And frankly, it's a "proven" system only in so much as it helped Dallas beat Miami. With vastly different personnel, against a team with no interior threat and before they improved their 3pt shooting, and they actually ran a lot of a pseudo-zone in that series too, which was arguably a bigger key defensively than the basic system.

    It's never been an elite defensive system.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    This has already been discussed at length.

    JV is too slow for this system. The vast majority of Cs would be. Casey even has said he wouldn't even put Chandler in for some of those 4th Qs where he wants his "scrambling D".

    Most of our personnel aren't good for it.

    And frankly, it's a "proven" system only in so much as it helped Dallas beat Miami. With vastly different personnel, against a team with no interior threat and before they improved their 3pt shooting, and they actually ran a lot of a pseudo-zone in that series too, which was arguably a bigger key defensively than the basic system.

    It's never been an elite defensive system.
    Cool. Did you read the article?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star tDotted's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    It's never been an elite defensive system.
    It worked extremely well in January of last year but has been leaky ever since.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    a smart team can run it.

    JV is slow, and not smart yet... give him time man..... another year or two I think.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star tDotted's Avatar
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    Quote Superjudge wrote: View Post
    a smart team can run it.

    JV is slow, and not smart yet... give him time man..... another year or two I think.
    The system takes athleticism and anticipation, not smarts.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    Cool. Did you read the article?
    Nope. Don't feel I need to. Just skimmed through it, and I don't think there's a single thing that hasn't already been pointed out in the discussions on this forum.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote tDotted wrote: View Post
    The system takes athleticism and anticipation, not smarts.
    What? Any defense in the NBA takes some degree of smarts, but ESPECIALLY this Raptor defense for the gigantic center.

    That's the biggest thing for him, because it's a lot easier than improving foot speed. He can compensate for that by being in the exact right place at the exact right time. How close to stay in to the rim in certain situations, when to hedge, when to help, when to switch, how long to stay in the paint, etc....experience will help him more than anything else. It will probably take 5 years of North American ball, and this is year 3
    Guys, I've brought you all hear today to introduce you to our new crunch time big: Giant Rock. Giant Rock is expected to stay in the paint and help on every single blow by. We'll require either Amir or Patterson to push Giant Rock out of the key every 3 seconds, then push him back in.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star tDotted's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    What? Any defense in the NBA takes some degree of smarts, but ESPECIALLY this Raptor defense for the gigantic center.

    That's the biggest thing for him, because it's a lot easier than improving foot speed. He can compensate for that by being in the exact right place at the exact right time. How close to stay in to the rim in certain situations, when to hedge, when to help, when to switch, how long to stay in the paint, etc....experience will help him more than anything else. It will probably take 5 years of North American ball, and this is year 3
    I was trying to say that this system doesn't rely on smarts. Of course every system needs competent players. Was just trying to highlight why guys like DeMar and 'Bro are excelling defensively in this system (despite not being known as high IQ defenders.) If JV was quick, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote tDotted wrote: View Post
    I was trying to say that this system doesn't rely on smarts. Of course every system needs competent players. Was just trying to highlight why guys like DeMar and 'Bro are excelling defensively in this system (despite not being known as high IQ defenders.) If JV was quick, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
    Yea but the Mavs had Dirk, Kidd, and Chandler ain't that quick either. How did they manage?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star tDotted's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Yea but the Mavs had Dirk, Kidd, and Chandler ain't that quick either. How did they manage?
    Chandler was quick. And they used a pseudo-zone half the time (like wmcj said before)

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Yea but the Mavs had Dirk, Kidd, and Chandler ain't that quick either. How did they manage?
    They put Kidd on SGs so he wouldn't face a big disadvantage. Marion and Chandler are quick and two of the best frontcourt defenders in their generation.

    Quote tDotted wrote: View Post
    Chandler was quick. And they used a pseudo-zone half the time (like wmcj said before)
    And this

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    Raptors Republic All-Star 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    So what system would work better?
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    So what system would work better?
    Memphis and the Pacers have build very good defences around stay-at-home centres who protect the rim.

    Jonas has a lot to learn, but he's already a very good rim protector and he's going to get less mobile as he ages and probably gains weight (he's already filled out his frame quite a bit since his first year) - this system doesn't make much sense now and it makes even less for the Raps' future.

    Aren't the vast majority of good D's built from the C out? Rangey/scrambling D's like Miami's were basically compensating for the fact that they didn't have a rim-protecting C. The Raps have one and Casey's trying to pound him into a square hole.
    Last edited by S.R.; Tue Feb 17th, 2015 at 11:00 PM.

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    Hard to believe that the writer chose not to discuss Patterson and Hansbrough, two of the team's best defenders. Hansbrough happens to fit the system well, despite playing out of position at centre. He also defends the pick and roll better than Valanciunas, especially when paired with Patterson.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar consmap's Avatar
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    The article talks a lot about how DeMar really helps the defense, but I wonder how much of that is a result of him guarding the lesser wing player most of the time (not counting that one game where he guarded LeBron). Kyle ends up guarding whatever speedy Gonzales of a point guard the other team has to offer, and Ross/JJ usually end up with the tougher wing assignments.

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    Memphis and the Pacers have build very good defences around stay-at-home centres who protect the rim.

    Jonas has a lot to learn, but he's already a very good rim protector and he's going to get less mobile as he ages and probably gains weight (he's already filled out his frame quite a bit since his first year) - this system doesn't make much sense now and it makes even less for the Raps' future.

    Aren't the vast majority of good D's built from the C out? Rangey/scrambling D's like Miami's were basically compensating for the fact that they didn't have a rim-protecting C. The Raps have one and Casey's trying to pound him into a square hole.
    The Raptors have the lowest Keep-in-Front% in the league. PG's blow by our perimeter defenders. What can any C do to stop that?
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    The Raptors have the lowest Keep-in-Front% in the league. PG's blow by our perimeter defenders. What can any C do to stop that?
    Funny thing is JV is actually doing a pretty good job of cleaning up the mess. He ranks very well in rim protection stats. Problem is, even if you are cleaning up well, if you are doing it every play there are bound to be breakdowns.

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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Funny thing is JV is actually doing a pretty good job of cleaning up the mess. He ranks very well in rim protection stats. Problem is, even if you are cleaning up well, if you are doing it every play there are bound to be breakdowns.
    Exactly. Memphis D may be anchored by Gasol, but Tony Allen usually guards and neutralizes opponents PG's - makes Gasol's job a hell of a lot easier.

    Chicago's D has taken a big step back,, the biggest reasons being Rose has been pretty shitty defending the perimeter and Butler has been saving his energy for the offensive end (a fact he admits, with the proviso he does turn up his D in the 4th).
    If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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