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Thread: Blowing it up proper! (Milwaukee-Toronto, Toronto-Charlotte)

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    Default Blowing it up proper! (Milwaukee-Toronto, Toronto-Charlotte)

    Still on the blow it up bandwagon.
    Still think the Raptors have a unique opportunity to build around a 21 year old franchise C.
    Still think even if everything works out for the best the current team is a 6/7th seed at best and first round exit while the possibility of missing the playoffs is very real.
    Still think this roster is built around the concept of a stretch 4.


    In attempting to tear things down, the Raptors should be looking to build the fringe playoff teams up.

    Charlotte is a team that is done tanking based on GM comments and actions.
    Milwaukee is a team that is never going to tank for a variety of reasons: income from playoff revenue is vital and currently trying to get a new arena is hard to do with a crappy team with little local interest.


    By helping Charlotte and Milwaukee, the Raptors separate themselves from the fringe and put themselves in position to get in to the top 6. With Wiggins, Randle, Exum, Gordon, Smart, and Parker, that would be good company to be in (a lot can change and those names can easily be replaced by others).


    Three trades:

    1) Charlotte-Toronto
    Gay/Gray to Cats for Biyombo/Gordon/2 first round picks (Detroit and Portland)
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=mk3tv96

    Charlotte lineup:
    Walker/Sessions/Pargo
    Henderson/Taylor
    Gay/MKG/Adrien
    Zeller/McRoberts/Tolliver
    Jefferson/Haywood/Gray

    2) Toronto-Milwaukee, Part 2
    DeRozan to Bucks for Udoh/Ridnour?/1st round pick (after December 15 Raps include Augustin?)
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ka92zr2
    *ESPN trade machine cap messed up on Milwaukee - not sure if $2M extra cap space is treated like same as salary with 150% when it comes to trade that is why question mark for Ridnour and Augustin).

    3) Toronto-Milwaukee, Part 1
    Lowry to Bucks for Knight/Antetokounmpo
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=kqyl785


    Milwaukee lineup:
    Lowry/Augustin or Ridnour/Wolters
    Mayo/Neal
    DeRozan/Butler/Middleton
    Ilyasova/Henson
    Sanders/Zaza/Raduljica

    Milwaukee is a team that is striving for playoffs year in and year out. DD might be overmatched at SF but they have 2 great help defenders in Henson and Sanders. On offense they have one of the best stretch 4s (Ilyasova) in the game plus another solid shooter at SG who can create (Mayo) plus two more 3 point threats in Neal and Butler.


    When all said and done for Toronto:

    Knight/Augustin or Ridnour/Buycks
    Ross/Fields/Stone/Gordon
    Antetokounmpo/Novak/Daye
    Amir/Hansbrough/Acy/Udoh
    JV/Biyombo

    From now until 2016 draft:
    own 2014, 2015, 2016 pick
    Milwaukee 2014 pick
    Portland top 12 protected 2014 and 2015, unprotected 2016
    Detroit Top 8 protected 2014, top 1 2015, unprotected 2016
    lower of Denver/NYK 2016 pick

    Raps would have about $22M in cap space for 2014-15 with 12 roster players under contract and possibly another $20+M in 2015-16 if they were conservative.


    Something like this is the path I hope Toronto eventually takes - lots of youth, prospects, picks, and cap space.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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    Glad to see you posting trade ideas again in the Trade Forum Matt!

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    I agree with the whole concept. As for specific trades,

    Charlotte - maybe. I'm not sure they are "done tanking," I think they are done losing 65 games a year. But who knows.

    Bucks - probably not. For one, I think the Bucks are clearly in the 3pt fan club right now. Miami abused their poor spacing in the playoffs, so they went and hired a coach who's very focused on good spacing, and they got rid of their poorly shooting wings. So considering that, I doubt they care about DeRozan. Also, I think that's a very high a price for Lowry rental.

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    What's the point of the DeRozan trade? We don't really get anything out of it other than a mid-round pick. In that case I'd rather just keep DeMar. He's 24, his contract doesn't kill the cap, and you already know you have a starter-quality player who can be a legitimate 3rd option. Zero guarantee you get that out of a mid-round pick, more likely you get someone worse. Not to mention the fact that Milwaukee wouldn't even want DeRozan, since they already have Mayo hooked for 7M a year.

    There isn't really any need to clear DeMar's contract to get cap space, considering we're probably not going to use the cap space for anything other than maybe absorbing a bad contract to get another pick or asset in the future.

    Beno Udrih also doesn't even play for the Bucks, he's on the Knicks. The salaries don't work in that deal in that case.

    I like the other two trades though.

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    Is there a reason that you divided the trades with Milwaukee into two? It seems simpler to do it as a single deal.

    Here would be my proposal:

    Toronto Trades:
    Lowry
    DeRozan

    Milwaukee Trades:
    Ridnour
    Knight
    Antetokounmpo
    2014 Pick (top 12 protected in 2014, top 3 in 2015, unprotected in 2016)

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=mtfbxwb

    I think the added protection on the pick would be significant for Milwaukee. It would go along with their goal of making playoffs, as well as balance the transaction as Lowry is due for a new contract (RFA next year). They keep Udoh for some insurance and gives them another expiring contract if they really do want to use him in a trade.

    The Raptors gain a PG prospect, and a SF prospect (very raw)...both of which will not help greatly this year. Ridnour is a solid player, but is also an expiring contract that could be used at trade deadline for anyone wanting some PG insurance.


    As for your Charlotte trade, I love it! Great value for the Raptors, but solid acquisitions for Charlotte. I do question whether they would give up two first round picks when Gay could easily walk next summer. At the same time, a single pick (with protection) would probably not be sufficient. Charlotte makes a lot of sense for Gay though...

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    Quote Shantz wrote: View Post
    Is there a reason that you divided the trades with Milwaukee into two? It seems simpler to do it as a single deal.

    Here would be my proposal:

    Toronto Trades:
    Lowry
    DeRozan

    Milwaukee Trades:
    Ridnour
    Knight
    Antetokounmpo
    2014 Pick (top 12 protected in 2014, top 3 in 2015, unprotected in 2016)

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=mtfbxwb

    I think the added protection on the pick would be significant for Milwaukee. It would go along with their goal of making playoffs, as well as balance the transaction as Lowry is due for a new contract (RFA next year). They keep Udoh for some insurance and gives them another expiring contract if they really do want to use him in a trade.

    The Raptors gain a PG prospect, and a SF prospect (very raw)...both of which will not help greatly this year. Ridnour is a solid player, but is also an expiring contract that could be used at trade deadline for anyone wanting some PG insurance.


    As for your Charlotte trade, I love it! Great value for the Raptors, but solid acquisitions for Charlotte. I do question whether they would give up two first round picks when Gay could easily walk next summer. At the same time, a single pick (with protection) would probably not be sufficient. Charlotte makes a lot of sense for Gay though...
    The trade machine is wrong on their cap figures. It says the Bucks have $7.5M in cap space but they only have about $2M. Your trade works on trade machine but it would not fly in reality.

    As an example, here is a trade with Utah who have $2.8M in cap space (forget the players, just an example of money):
    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=k6jhvut

    $15.7 out for Toronto combined with $9.16 in (more than Milwaukee trade) does not work.


    To make it work, the Raptors need to work within the 150% + $100K rule trades under $10M between two non-taxpayers.

    First trade in OP works:
    $4.586M x 150% + $100K = $6.97

    To make 2nd OP trade work, need about $6.3M to be sent from Milwaukee to Toronto.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    My trade proposal for a Raptors/Bucks deal would be Valanciunas for Larry Sanders. I don't think the Bucks would go for it, though. I like Sanders game, his dramatic improvement last year, and that the Larry Sanders Show is one my personal favourite TV comedies. "Hey now!"

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    Bucks owner Herb Kohl does not want this year's team to bear the burden of having to be successful to help in the effort to get a new facility to replace the BMO Harris Bradley Center.

    Kohl talked about his team's prospects and his quest to get a new facility at the team's media day Monday at the Archbishop Cousins Center.

    "Naturally you want to be as good as you can be, that helps in moving toward an arena," Kohl said. "But I would not want to put that burden on our basketball operation, that we need to conduct ourselves and run our business basketball-wise thinking about the facility. Because it's going to happen. We are going to get a facility. I'm confident we are going to get a facility because it's an important thing not only for basketball but for our community.

    "So we want to get there," Kohl said. "We're going to get there. But we didn't put together our team this year for that reason. We did the best job we could in putting together the best team that we could put together. We think it's going to be a good team and entertaining team, without putting pressure on anybody — coaches, players — because that's what they want also."

    Read more from JSOnline: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/bucks...#ixzz2gVaWFMh6
    Follow us: @NewsHub on Twitter
    But Kohl said he does have expectations.

    "This is a team that we have high expectations for, that we set high standards, high goals," Kohl said. "No good player doesn't want that. Players want to start seasons having realistic hopes that they can be good, that the team can be good, because as the season wears on you know that if you don't win your share of games, it ain't fun. That's what we want to do. We want to be a good team."

    Kohl was asked about all the changes made in the off-season.

    "I feel good about it. I don't think we should see ourselves as a team that's going through a transition in which we can't be good. ... We are not a team that we need to look at without enthusiasm, without expectation, without hope. We have a lot of athletic ability on this team. We have many, many good players. We have players with outstanding character, without exception."

    Kohl noted that even though the roster is experienced, there is a lot of youth as well.

    "We think we are ready to go out there and compete, which is what you want to do every year," Kohl said. "We don't want to stand here and talk silly and talk about we're sure we're going to win a championship. We want to be realistic and honest about who we are. We are experienced. We have talent. We have good character. We want to be a good team. We expect to be a good team."

    Tanking as a strategy to build up a team's roster is not a method Kohl endorses. That method is not an option for him.

    "I have never been a person to use the word tank," Kohl said. "Maybe there's a different word. But I have owned the team for 20-some years (29) and never once did I go into a year saying, 'Let's not try and be a good team.' I've always felt that way. So this year is no different.

    "There are some teams that buy into one kind of philosophy, but I'm not commenting on what other teams do," Kohl said. "But I don't believe in not competing and doing everything you can to be as competitive as you can. Then you are looking for the breaks along the way that will give you a chance to elevate to a high standard."

    Kohl cited the example of the Indiana Pacers as a team that has been able to play at a high level without ever tanking.

    "All of sudden here they are competing for the Eastern Conference championship," Kohl said. "They did it without using that word (tanking). So do we want to do it that way?"

    Read more from JSOnline: http://www.jsonline.com/sports/bucks...#ixzz2gVahBD4t
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    Milwaukee aren't tanking.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    What's the point of the DeRozan trade? We don't really get anything out of it other than a mid-round pick. In that case I'd rather just keep DeMar. He's 24, his contract doesn't kill the cap, and you already know you have a starter-quality player who can be a legitimate 3rd option. Zero guarantee you get that out of a mid-round pick, more likely you get someone worse. Not to mention the fact that Milwaukee wouldn't even want DeRozan, since they already have Mayo hooked for 7M a year.

    There isn't really any need to clear DeMar's contract to get cap space, considering we're probably not going to use the cap space for anything other than maybe absorbing a bad contract to get another pick or asset in the future.

    Beno Udrih also doesn't even play for the Bucks, he's on the Knicks. The salaries don't work in that deal in that case.

    I like the other two trades though.
    Beno Udrih and Ekpe Udoh are different players.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Beno Udrih and Ekpe Udoh are different players.
    Weird wonder why I read that as Udrih. My bad.

    Cool on ignoring the rest of my post though.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Weird wonder why I read that as Udrih. My bad.

    Cool on ignoring the rest of my post though.
    What is there to reply to?

    You clearly ignored my posts other than who was in the trade. I stated why Milwaukee makes the trade:

    Milwaukee is a team that is striving for playoffs year in and year out. DD might be overmatched at SF but they have 2 great help defenders in Henson and Sanders. On offense they have one of the best stretch 4s (Ilyasova) in the game plus another solid shooter at SG who can create (Mayo) plus two more 3 point threats in Neal and Butler.
    In replying to Shantz I explained why the trade was broken down in to two trades. The reality is it would be one trade as Shantz said but to conform to CBA rules it would need to be done as two. Granted that reply came after your post but is there need to explain it again?

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    There isn't really any need to clear DeMar's contract to get cap space, considering we're probably not going to use the cap space for anything other than maybe absorbing a bad contract to get another pick or asset in the future.
    Or the cap space could be used to sign a significant free agent.
    Or the cap space could be used to facilitate a trade for a good player on a luxury tax fearing team.
    Or the cap space could be used to take on a player as another team attempts to get under the cap.
    The draft pick might become a sweetner for a trade in conjunction with the cap space.
    The draft pick might become a player who dropped for whatever reason - someone always slides.
    The draft pick might become a foreign player with great talent but has contract issues (Pekovic?).

    The point is you don't know what the cap space or the pick might become. The key is flexibility and having options with the ability to benefit helping other teams.

    DeRozan is a bad contract and there is every need to clear it. Unless he shows dramatic improvement he is an average offensive player/weak defensive player who is getting 2x average and 3-4x median NBA salary. In the new NBA value is more important than ever.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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    DeMar is not a bad contract.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    DeMar is not a bad contract.
    To be fair, no one knows that right now as he has never played a game for his new contract.

    However, without significant growth in his game, he is overpaid at best. As has been said 1,000,000 times, he is one-dimensional and average at best based on his 4 years in the league. Hopefully he steps up his game but, if he does, he will be a rarity in terms of his years experience and minutes played.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    To be fair, no one knows that right now as he has never played a game for his new contract.

    However, without significant growth in his game, he is overpaid at best. As has been said 1,000,000 times, he is one-dimensional and average at best based on his 4 years in the league. Hopefully he steps up his game but, if he does, he will be a rarity in terms of his years experience and minutes played.
    Actually, I know for a FACT right now that DeMar is not a BAD CONTRACT.

    He is a 6'7, African-American basketball player.

    Now whether he actually HAS a bad contract is up for debate, but he most definitely is not a bad contract, I assure you he is not made of paper.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Actually, I know for a FACT right now that DeMar is not a BAD CONTRACT.

    He is a 6'7, African-American basketball player.

    Now whether he actually HAS a bad contract is up for debate, but he most definitely is not a bad contract, I assure you he is not made of paper.
    That is a good point.
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    Bill Simmons sees Toronto and Milwaukee dancing but with Gay being the dance partner:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=l786gzc

    Butler, Udoh, Giannis for Rudy

    If Raps get a 1st round pick thrown in, I'd say hell yes immediately.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bill Simmons sees Toronto and Milwaukee dancing but with Gay being the dance partner:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=l786gzc

    Butler, Udoh, Giannis for Rudy

    If Raps get a 1st round pick thrown in, I'd say hell yes immediately.
    That was my exact thought as well! Giannis is not enough incentive to go with expiring contracts. Gianni's along with a pick would be great!

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    Yep
    @jerboat

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