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Thread: Bill Simmons and Jalen Rose - 23rd in the NBA (Video)

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    Default Bill Simmons and Jalen Rose - 23rd in the NBA (Video)



    Interesting video on the Raptors this season by Bill Simmons and Jalen Rose. Nice to hear Jalen saying some good things about Demar except maybe him saying he's a good three point shooter. I do somewhat agree that Ujiri will trade Gay as soon as possible if a good trade is offered. In the video, Bill Simmons predicts this trade: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=l786gzc. We'll see if they are right about this season.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran rocwell's Avatar
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    Little bit off topic but..

    Tyler throw JV out of bounds and almost got him injured and now Psycho is on Raptors roster.

    And if Bill Simmons a.k.a Sucker's trade prediction is correct, then we'll see JV and Caron reunion...

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Can't say I love that trade. Better be picks involved. Ekpe is a nice player, but is he any better than Amir/Hansborough?

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    Sweet Jesus that was a fantastic, and i mean FANTASTIC preview.

    For once in a long, very long time I was entertained.

    Jalen is hilarious, Simmons is a smug prick and I love it.

    More of these guys. Leiweiekekeieie.... whatever it takes, you wanna improve your brand....fire your current analysts and hire these two, whatever the cost. They would make watching Toronto entertaining for the right reasons.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Good video. A couple of things that piss me off:

    1) The Simmons "Toronto Don't Care about Raptors, They Love Hockey" rant is old. Answer me these questions:

    a) What US city that has a NFL team and a NBA team has a more popular NBA team?
    b) What US city that has a NFL team, a MLB team, and a NBA team has a more popular NBA team?

    For both, I can't think of one off the top of my head. The only difference between Toronto and US cities is that hockey is not more popular down in the States - football and to a lesser extent baseball is. So enough, please.

    2) The tax issues are true but they do not highlight a couple of things:

    a) where the game is played is where the money is taxed. 41 home games and 41 away games.
    b) I could be mistaken but I am pretty sure the Raptors can make up the tax difference (the 3-4% Rose refers to). There is a clause somewhere I read in the past that allows the Raptors to not be at a competitive disadvantage. I could be wrong here but I don't think I am. I recall this very clear from Colangelo during a presser. Basically win/make it a place players want to be and there is no excuse.

    Other than that, I enjoyed this - thanks for posting.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    It shocks me more and more how much American analyst don't know about the Raptors. I just want Rudy to have a good season just to shut Bill Simmons up. Like did they even do research? Rudy got more efficient when he got to Toronto. Not the other way around.
    @Chr1st1anL

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    Matt.

    jalen is even wrong, they get that tax money back after they do the tax work. you aren't taxed more to play in Toronto, last I looked at least. Now, Jalen has more experience here than I somaybe he's right, but even so, thats why guys are "overpaid" here. Makes up the difference.

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    That was a terrible preview video. Just lazy, filled with a lot of erroneous conventional wisdom (the hockey thing, the tax thing - an American playing in Toronto doesn't pay significantly more tax than a player playing in Chicago or New York or LA, although they will compared to Dallas or Miami but that's because Texas and Florida don't have state income taxes), totally wrong stuff like Jalen claiming DeMar can shoot the three when DeMar has NEVER been able to shoot the three, absolutely no analysis of how the team plays together or what their needs/holes are because they're too busy spitballing a Rudy Gay trade that would never happen (and the Bucks? The Bucks have Ersan Ilyanova, they don't really need Rudy - the Bucks need a point guard, they would target Lowry if they wanted us as a trade partner)... yeesh. Bad, bad, bad.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Holy fuck Bud, it's Grantland, it's fun. Let your hair down a bit Princess.

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Does anyone know the facts on the tax situation? The obvious assumption is that Canada has higher taxes, but I've heard a lot of muddled arguments to the contrary. You would expect Jalen to know, though - he played here. (Then again, plenty of players don't have a great handle on what's happening with their money.)

    I'm also tired of "the Raptors are in Canada" consuming so much of the discussion of this franchise. For all the reasons mentioned above, this doesn't really matter. Toronto's a big, high profile city with plenty of money to be made from wealthy ownership and endorsement opportunities. Vince became a league superstar playing in this city, and he and Bosh both stuck with the franchise past their rookie contracts - I don't know why the assumption that players refuse to come/flee as soon as possible persists. It's not true at all.

    I think, even for Americans, the difference between Toronto and any of the US's large northern cities (NY, Boston, Chicago, Detroit) is much smaller than the difference between Charlotte and New York or Oklahoma City and LA, for example. Have these people never been to Cleveland???

    I wish they could just discuss basketball instead of the novelty of having a team in another country.

    All that said, I love Grantland and this series by Simmons and Jalen. Zach Lowe's got an insightful paragraph on the Raptors situation in his last column: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...2013-14-season
    Last edited by S.R.; Wed Oct 9th, 2013 at 10:36 AM.

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    Oh Man.

    Ok listen up. This is a fun program, its entertainment man, why the fuss. But I will bite.

    Toronto, as a Team, and a management group. HAS SUCKED MASSIVELY FOR 20 YEARS.

    These guys are being kind. Period.

    there IS a greasy tax situation, but it can be circumvented with a good accountant, or overpayment. It IS a Hockey town.

    Jalen REPEATEDLY argued that Toronto's Basketball fanbase was huge, and great. I find it interesting that Simmons has drawn so much fire here, I thought you guys were "intelligent canadian fans" Whats up? You know they write this stuff and go over the notes beforehand right? You know that Simmons is playing a part, and Jalen is playing another right? Its called entertainment. Simmons plays up the common myth, Jalen shoots it down. Simmons calls out the fans, and the Hockey myth, Jalen shoots it down. Jalen calls out the money myth, Siummons shoots that down.

    On the whole, that was a fantastic bit for Toronto. Jalen was SUPER Pro Toronto, so was Simmons in his own mart ass way. What the fuck are they supposed to say about this HORRIFIC franchise???? We might have to put up with the shit here, as we are local fans, but why should they????

    I think people need to settle down, enjoy it for hat it is, and try to be a bit more realistic about the team they cheer for. Our team is fucking horrible, has been, and is set to be again.

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    the tax thing is a pretty big deal. i didn't know they had to pay canadian tax as well as american... I thought it was either/or.

    that sucks balls.

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    A little more research could've been done prior to filming ("DeMar's a good three point shooter" ???), but overall it was very entertaining. Bill Simmons needs to lighten up his views on Toronto though. lol
    Twitter - @thekid_it

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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    A little more research could've been done prior to filming ("DeMar's a good three point shooter" ???), but overall it was very entertaining. Bill Simmons needs to lighten up his views on Toronto though. lol
    They are just good cop, bad cop'in it man, no worries

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    I've said it before and I'll say it again: U.S. on-line sports media play Raptors' fans. I remember, from 7-8 years ago, an NBA.com writer say that one sure way of getting lots of activity was saying something wrong/controversial/critical about Toronto/Canada/Raptors. Raptors fans play along and it pays the bills.

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    Hey, I love Jalen and don't doubt his personal experience, but double taxation from the US and Canada? I've worked overseas myself and now work with immigrants in Canada, many of them on work permits. I have never heard of double income taxes. Maybe there's some extra 3-4% in Ontario/Canada for non-resident athletes? (Louisiana actually does this.)

    "While Ontario’s income tax rate is higher than the state income tax rate of any state with an NBA team, Canada’s top federal income tax rate is 29% – considerably less than the top tax bracket in the U.S., which weighs in at 35%. When federal tax rates are included, Toronto’s income tax ranks as the 13th lowest of all NBA cities." - link

    "The complicating factor for pro athletes is not how much they earn — though they often make millions of dollars per year — but where they earn it. With few exceptions, athletes owe income taxes in every state where they play.

    Red Sox players, for example, will take the field in 14 states and the Canadian province of Ontario this season. Eleven of those jurisdictions tax income earned within their borders. In addition, several cities where the team will play road games — Detroit, Kansas City, Philadelphia, and Cleveland — levy separate* income taxes.

    Including his federal obligation and any taxes owed to his home state, a Sox player might expect to pay 17 tax bills." - Boston Globe

    "The tax treaty between the United States and Canada preventing double taxation for those who cross the border for work can complicate tax planning for Canadian-based NBA, NHL and MLB players. (There are no NFL teams north of the border.)
    This is because Canada's top tax rate of 48 percent is 13 percent higher than the U.S. maximum (35 percent), and Canada taxes individuals based on their residency while the U.S. taxes people based on citizenship.
    Get a signing bonus from a Canadian team, which under the treaty is only taxed at 15 percent," he says. "Canada withholds 15 percent, you get a full credit, pay the 20 percent down here, and you're not penalized for playing for a Canadian-based team." - Yahoo Finance

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    "The complicating factor for pro athletes is not how much they earn ó though they often make millions of dollars per year ó but where they earn it. With few exceptions, athletes owe income taxes in every state where they play.
    Not sure I understand this. The athlete gets one paycheck from one employer in one state, which is presumably his primary residence for that year. Why would the location where his services be rendered (i.e. where the games are played) have to be broken out separately from a tax point of view?

    It would be like a field service engineer having to pay taxes in every state that his company dispatches him to fix. How is an athlete different from the field service guy?

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I've said it before and I'll say it again: U.S. on-line sports media play Raptors' fans. I remember, from 7-8 years ago, an NBA.com writer say that one sure way of getting lots of activity was saying something wrong/controversial/critical about Toronto/Canada/Raptors. Raptors fans play along and it pays the bills.
    Simmons refers to the vicious/passionate online presence of Raptors fans all the time (in a positive way). No doubt he's looking to stir things up.

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    Simmons refers to the vicious/passionate online presence of Raptors fans all the time (in a positive way). Undoubtedly he's looking to poke a sleeping bear.
    Simmons' formula is to provoke the readers in order to get responses (= hits = advertising $$ = more money for Bill Simmons). Over time, Simmons has discovered that Toronto fans provide the most consistently Pavlolian responses to his jabs and moreso in high volume.

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Not sure I understand this. The athlete gets one paycheck from one employer in one state, which is presumably his primary residence for that year. Why would the location where his services be rendered (i.e. where the games are played) have to be broken out separately from a tax point of view?

    It would be like a field service engineer having to pay taxes in every state that his company dispatches him to fix. How is an athlete different from the field service guy?
    This surprised me, too. One of the articles mentioned needing to play a minimum number of games in a city before the taxes kick in. That implies there's a minimum earnings floor before this takes effect? That would explain why your average field service guy/sales guy/trucker etc. wouldn't pay it. It makes sense - for small amounts the admin work wouldn't make processing the claims worthwhile in a jurisdiction, but if the earnings are high enough, they'll want a piece of the pie.

    Just thinking out loud here...I'm no tax expert.

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