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Thread: Ross

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Remember what Casey and Colangelo said the night they drafted Ross?

    They said he's a 3pt shooter, gonna space the floor for Bargnani and DeRozan. Liked Ross over Rivers because of his ability to shoot and he's more NBA ready than Austin.

    Who scouts these guys??
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    Ah have you seen Rivers play? I still got Ross over Rivers. Ross is a trade-able asset. That's more than you can say about Rivers with a straight face.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    I dont really care about Rivers. I just basically quoted Casey and Colangelo.
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    Remember what Casey and Colangelo said the night they drafted Ross?

    They said he's a 3pt shooter, gonna space the floor for Bargnani and DeRozan. Liked Ross over Rivers because of his ability to shoot and he's more NBA ready than Austin.

    Who scouts these guys??
    I have wondered about Ross from almost day one. I admit I never watched any college games but so many people were high on him. Even now he seems bewildered by the pace of the game, like a rookie in his first few NBA games. I mean he doesn't even look good in summer league. I wonder if he just doesn't have the ability to process the game at the speed required in the NBA. He regularly seems a step behind. Is this a permanent thing? maybe he doesn't have the higher gear to take his college game to the NBA level. Still doesn't have an NBA 3 pt shot. I mean how many players miss the basket when they take a 3? sure it happens, but a 3pt airball seems to be Ross's favourite shot.

    It's pretty bad when Casey has to think about pulling Ross and putting in Acy when he wants to spread the floor and get some rebounding.

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    Raptors Republic Starter connected's Avatar
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    I can't really harp on the past -- the only thing that bothers me about that draft is BC always said he believed in stacking positions ... and the one time where stacking the C position (with Drummond) would have been huge for our franchise and we missed out

    With the exception of Drummond (and Henson) there is no one in that draft behind the 8th pick that has proved to be a better prospect than Ross... yet

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Actually Rivers put in a lot of work in the off season and contacted The legendary Austin Rivers with the help of his father to get better.

    hes been having a good summer league so far and his game is quite a lot better, really becoming that combo guard NO wanted him to be. Who knows what Ross did in the summer besides play video games travel and masturbate. He lloks exactly the same as he did I dont notice any added bulk I know hes wiry but he doesnt seem stronger handle is bad and shot if possible even worse He is really worrying me If Ross served any purpose to this team, it was making DeRozan better with the threat of losing his job to him now we all know and he knows that's not going to happen ever.

    btw there is an Everything Ross thread.

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    The more Drummond beasts and Ross doesn't the worse the pick looks. But you gotta remember in dealing with teenage millionaires there are SO many factors that make drafting an inexact science. He has all of the talent, but the desire to kick ass and take names seems to be absent. That being said, this will be a long season and his fate will be more or less assured by the end of it.

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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    I dont really care about Rivers. I just basically quoted Casey and Colangelo.
    ...But that's not what you asked... Anyway, they fired that Colangelo guy so this is all moot. Should they have drafted the Center?...It looks like it. Was Ross better than Rivers? Yes, yes he was. Pretty sure that's what you asked. I answered, then you changed your mind about the question...That's not how conversations work...Unless you're a bitter ex...lol.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    It's hardly that bad a mistake. As said, only Drummond and Henson seem like better players. Drummond had flags about his body and motor that obviously put off 7 other teams (I guarantee you if the draft is re-done, Drummond doesn't make it to 8th so what's the point in fussing over it?). Henson was obviously a lower lottery pick. He was a guy I liked, along with Ross, if we traded down, because I didn't think you'd need a #8 pick for Ross.

    I didn't like Rivers or Lamb, though I would have settle for Lamb if we traded down as well. None of them, including Ross, have really done anything to stand out, and the Raps clearly targeted a wing....so that was probably the problem.

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    Quote connected wrote: View Post
    I can't really harp on the past -- the only thing that bothers me about that draft is BC always said he believed in stacking positions ... and the one time where stacking the C position (with Drummond) would have been huge for our franchise and we missed out

    With the exception of Drummond (and Henson) there is no one in that draft behind the 8th pick that has proved to be a better prospect than Ross... yet
    You are correct, BUT, DRUMMOND is HUGE! We missed out big time. I remember everyone was saying the the only thing they ware worried about with Drummond was his age and most importantly his MOTOR! Well his motor seems fine to me!

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    Quote Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
    You are correct, BUT, DRUMMOND is HUGE! We missed out big time. I remember everyone was saying the the only thing they ware worried about with Drummond was his age and most importantly his MOTOR! Well his motor seems fine to me!
    Remember, at the time we had JV, Eddie, Amir, and Bargs at the 4/5. After the infamous 13 game Good Bargnani stretch in Duane Casey's first year, lots of people around here (and presumably in the front office as well) were still hoping that Bargs would finally get his shit together and play up to his potential. Eddie was looking like a backup/borderline starter at the PF that any team would envy, and JV was without a doubt our center of the future. We also had a gaping hole in the depth chart on the wing (remember Alan Anderson, Mikael Pietrus et. al?).

    There were plenty of reasons to doubt Drummond. Go back and look at his college stats: they're really underwhelming. At a level where his superior athleticism should have allowed him to dominate, he actually scored at a lower volume than he has so far in the NBA: 14.1 PTS/40 vs. 15.3 in the NBA. He was also a really terrible rebounder for his size and physical gifts. At 10.6 RB/40, he was actually below average even compared to regular NCAA players (i.e., not NCAA players who eventually make it to the NBA). His elite rebounding in the NBA literally came out of nowhere. He also shot under 30% on his free throws in college. He was looking like his absolute best case scenario was DeAndre Jordan, with something like Hasheem Thabeet or Bismack Biyombo being his more likely career path. (Just try to find a player with a college profile like his who's ever managed to be successful in the NBA. He's really one of a kind.)

    All that, combined with the persistent reports that his work ethic wasn't terribly good, pointed to him most probably being a huge bust.

    The choice was between "probable bust at the one position where we don't even have any minutes available" and "seemingly NBA-ready defender with 3pt range at a position we desperately need talent". With the information available at the time, I think Ross was a good call.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    Remember, at the time we had JV, Eddie, Amir, and Bargs at the 4/5. After the infamous 13 game Good Bargnani stretch in Duane Casey's first year, lots of people around here (and presumably in the front office as well) were still hoping that Bargs would finally get his shit together and play up to his potential. Eddie was looking like a backup/borderline starter at the PF that any team would envy, and JV was without a doubt our center of the future. We also had a gaping hole in the depth chart on the wing (remember Alan Anderson, Mikael Pietrus et. al?).

    There were plenty of reasons to doubt Drummond. Go back and look at his college stats: they're really underwhelming. At a level where his superior athleticism should have allowed him to dominate, he actually scored at a lower volume than he has so far in the NBA: 14.1 PTS/40 vs. 15.3 in the NBA. He was also a really terrible rebounder for his size and physical gifts. At 10.6 RB/40, he was actually below average even compared to regular NCAA players (i.e., not NCAA players who eventually make it to the NBA). His elite rebounding in the NBA literally came out of nowhere. He also shot under 30% on his free throws in college. He was looking like his absolute best case scenario was DeAndre Jordan, with something like Hasheem Thabeet or Bismack Biyombo being his more likely career path. (Just try to find a player with a college profile like his who's ever managed to be successful in the NBA. He's really one of a kind.)

    All that, combined with the persistent reports that his work ethic wasn't terribly good, pointed to him most probably being a huge bust.

    The choice was between "probable bust at the one position where we don't even have any minutes available" and "seemingly NBA-ready defender with 3pt range at a position we desperately need talent". With the information available at the time, I think Ross was a good call.
    Great post.

    A lot of people (here) forget, but Drummond was considered one of the most likely to bust players in the draft, BECAUSE of his play in college and attitude. Detroit lucked out, basically.

    Hindsight is 20/20. Now shut up.
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Great post.

    A lot of people (here) forget, but Drummond was considered one of the most likely to bust players in the draft, BECAUSE of his play in college and attitude. Detroit lucked out, basically.

    Hindsight is 20/20. Now shut up.
    get that shit outta here. Hind sight my ass, I was at the draft party, 3000 people lost their shit when Toronto passed on Drummond. This "support or die" attitude people have has to end. Your team sucks, they made shit decisions that do NOT need to be defended. Period.

    Oh, and Austin Rivers is 3x the player Ross is.

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    Since we are still ruminating about the what ifs re Drummond (I thought Drummond was the best pick at that spot after Lillard and Barnes were gone because of the upside)...a large red flag was his abysmal free throw shooting. Two of the best Cs lately,,,Shaq & Howard had the same rep and were never able to cure it (DH somewhat but still a liability). Crunch time especially in big games is when this failing shows up.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    I've always been clear about how much i hate BC, but the Ross pick is not something i hold over him because of what tkfu said.
    And Craig i don't doubt there was outrage, but i was watching the Raptors live blog during the draft and there was outrage alright but people were mad because we skipped on Austin Rivers, had you had been able to ask those 3 000 people what they were upset about i'm pretty sure the majority would have said Rivers, during all the pre-draft workouts, interviews, rumors, everywhere it said Rivers, Rivers, when he said he thought highly of Toronto and that his Dad had nothing but good things to say about Toronto, Fans went wild a High profile prospect who WANTS to be in Toronto, it was Rivers all day, every Day.

    When Casey & BC were interviewed right after the pick, the questions were why did they pick Ross over Rivers, there was no mention of Drummond.

    I don't doubt there are a few College B-Ball fans who believed Drummond was the pick, but lets stop pretending that's what everybody saw coming and that he was the obvious pick. Hell Toronto didn't even invite him for a workout, where was the outrage then ?

    If you want to argue Rivers is a better pick then Ross, then yeah lets stone BC, but other than Rivers & Lamb; there isn't much to complain about.

    BC sucked but you don't get to where he is (was) by being wrong 100% of the time.
    If Teams could redo the last 10 drafts, I'm pretty sure Lebron, Howard and Rose and Irving at #1 (maybe Griffin depends on how you feel about harden) are the only picks who would stay the same.

    Hindsight is 20/20, and if you're one of the few that saw it beforehand, tap yourself on the back because the majority of the world didn't.

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    Going back to Ross: I've been an advocate of trading him for a long while now (since shortly after the All-Star Break). I understood the hope that he would turn into Danny Green. But I don't think he turns into Danny Green unless there's a system in place to make sure he becomes Danny Green, and we don't have that system and won't in time for his development to be properly impacted.

    I think Ross will serve best as excellent sweetener for another trade (Lowry AND Ross or Rudy AND Ross becomes a lot more tantalizing, especially when people will be less familiar with Ross' downside than we are).

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    I think the pick is worthy of some criticism because a) they seemingly drafted based on positional need rather than take the greatest talent available, a big no-no when choosing in the top ten and b) they seemingly reached for Ross, who most people had slated as a late lottery selection.

    There were rumblings at the time that the Rockets were looking to package the 12th and 16th overall picks together for a shot to move into the top ten and grab Drummond. I would have loved to see BC pull off something like this if he was 100% sure that Ross was his guy. He's probably still available at 12, and you get to pick up another young asset in the process. But who really knows whether those rumours were true and if something like this was actually an option at the time.

    The people who make it seem like Drummond's ascent was a foregone conclusion are way off base too. Everyone looks like a draft genius with the benefit of hindsight, and while his upside was always evident, he had more red flags than anyone in the draft as well. I'm not saying that it's a completely defensible draft choice, but it's also really easy to say what the team should have done and be right when you already have the answers.

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    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    get that shit outta here. Hind sight my ass, I was at the draft party, 3000 people lost their shit when Toronto passed on Drummond. This "support or die" attitude people have has to end. Your team sucks, they made shit decisions that do NOT need to be defended. Period.

    Oh, and Austin Rivers is 3x the player Ross is.
    That is perhaps the biggest joke I have ever read on this site.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I think the pick is worthy of some criticism because a) they seemingly drafted based on positional need rather than take the greatest talent available, a big no-no when choosing in the top ten and b) they seemingly reached for Ross, who most people had slated as a late lottery selection.

    There were rumblings at the time that the Rockets were looking to package the 12th and 16th overall picks together for a shot to move into the top ten and grab Drummond. I would have loved to see BC pull off something like this if he was 100% sure that Ross was his guy. He's probably still available at 12, and you get to pick up another young asset in the process. But who really knows whether those rumours were true and if something like this was actually an option at the time.

    The people who make it seem like Drummond's ascent was a foregone conclusion are way off base too. Everyone looks like a draft genius with the benefit of hindsight, and while his upside was always evident, he had more red flags than anyone in the draft as well. I'm not saying that it's a completely defensible draft choice, but it's also really easy to say what the team should have done and be right when you already have the answers.
    This, to me, has always been the more important point. At the end of the day, the quality of player that Ross or Drummond has become isn't really material to a discussion of who should have been picked on the night of the draft -- none of that information was available at the time, so BC can hardly be blamed on that basis.

    HOWEVER, as Fully mentioned, the mistake was in not appreciating the asset that Drummond was at the time. No one was going to trade up to grab Ross from us at 8, because no one valued him that highly. It seems that there were several teams, though, who valued Drummond at 8. So even if you hated him and projected a disastrous career for him (all legitimate predictions) it still would have been smarter to take him, because he held the most value in the eyes of the other GM's, and that's what determines asset value in the draft.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Shrub's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Great post.

    A lot of people (here) forget, but Drummond was considered one of the most likely to bust players in the draft, BECAUSE of his play in college and attitude. Detroit lucked out, basically.

    Hindsight is 20/20. Now shut up.
    Yeah, but what of Ross' attitude?

    Frankly, I'd prefer not to beat a dead horse and ponder what could have been, and see what happens with Ross (how stupid will all this be if he turns out to be good?), but I do take an active interest in scouting and I do wonder about the process. And from that angle, this excuse just doesn't stand up.

    I remember a quote from Ross during the summer about a 'revelation' he had that getting into the NBA wasn't the end of the hard work, but only the beginning. My goodness, is that ever a juvenile and naive thing to say.
    He thought he had made it by getting drafted, and spoke openly about this after a poor rookie season. He had the poor sense to admit that this was the attitude he had going into the NBA draft...

    Why didn't somebody catch that before he became our lottery pick?
    How many conversation did they have with the kid?

    Long story short, Ross must have had tons of red flags as well, and scouting failed to see them.
    Last edited by Shrub; Mon Oct 14th, 2013 at 02:21 PM.

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