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Thread: Ross

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    That is perhaps the biggest joke I have ever read on this site.
    Well if I can't enlighten you, I'm sure as hell happy I was at least able to make you laugh!!



    Cheers bud!

  2. #22
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    Quote themasao wrote: View Post
    This, to me, has always been the more important point. At the end of the day, the quality of player that Ross or Drummond has become isn't really material to a discussion of who should have been picked on the night of the draft -- none of that information was available at the time, so BC can hardly be blamed on that basis.

    HOWEVER, as Fully mentioned, the mistake was in not appreciating the asset that Drummond was at the time. No one was going to trade up to grab Ross from us at 8, because no one valued him that highly. It seems that there were several teams, though, who valued Drummond at 8. So even if you hated him and projected a disastrous career for him (all legitimate predictions) it still would have been smarter to take him, because he held the most value in the eyes of the other GM's, and that's what determines asset value in the draft.
    This is such a great point. The smart GMs have realized that the draft and stockpiling picks is all about asset accumulation of young talent or the 'potential' of talent, at an affordable price. There is nothing wrong with rehashing this - it's kind of like a smaller version of Jordan over Bowie (in reverse) remorse that they still talk about in Portland. It is mistakes like these that change the direction of franchises for 5-10 years.

    Just imagine if we had Drummond and JV as 'assets' and we tanked to a top 5 pick in 2014 draft. Then, it actually becomes possible to put together a package our our pick + JV or Drummond to get Wiggins + a lower pick. A rebuilding team like Philly would definitely consider it.

    And regarding the reasons why BC passed on Drummond - that's been documented. Colangelo had Drummond ranked as a top 5 talent. WTF?!

    http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...ndre-drummond/


    BC on Primetime (explaining why he passed on Drummond):

    "There’s a checklist: talent, physical tools, basketball IQ, how they perform, how we anticipate they’ll perform. Character. Emotional make-up. Marketability. Each component is part of the process. The toughest is what’s inside a player. You can’t see the heart, the emotional aspect of things.

    Picking eighth, I passed on somebody I consider a top-five talent in the draft because we felt like he didn’t have the right mental makeup. I passed on someone we thought was a top-three physical specimen because we felt he wasn’t the right fit for our team and didn’t have the right mental makeup."


    Translation: Drummond failed the Caliper Test. LOL.
    Last edited by golden; Tue Oct 15th, 2013 at 12:19 PM.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptorsss's Avatar
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    Because, when Minnesota selected 3pg's with their 3 first round picks, that worked out so well for them? Selecting best player available only works to a certain extent.
    -"You canít run from me. I mean, my heart donít bleed Kool-Aid."
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  4. #24
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    Quote themasao wrote: View Post
    This, to me, has always been the more important point. At the end of the day, the quality of player that Ross or Drummond has become isn't really material to a discussion of who should have been picked on the night of the draft -- none of that information was available at the time, so BC can hardly be blamed on that basis.

    HOWEVER, as Fully mentioned, the mistake was in not appreciating the asset that Drummond was at the time. No one was going to trade up to grab Ross from us at 8, because no one valued him that highly. It seems that there were several teams, though, who valued Drummond at 8. So even if you hated him and projected a disastrous career for him (all legitimate predictions) it still would have been smarter to take him, because he held the most value in the eyes of the other GM's, and that's what determines asset value in the draft.
    When you trade a pick, you trade any of the potential players that pick could become. But if you trade a drafted player, even if it's before he plays a single game, that all changes. Remember 1999? The then-Vancouver Grizzlies drafted Steve Francis with the 2nd overall pick, but he pouted, threw a temper tantrum, and demanded a trade. Now that the whole league knew the Grizz were looking to trade him, the best deal they could find was Othella Harrington and a bunch of scrubs (yes, Othella Harrington was the "big name" in that trade), plus a future 1st-round pick that wound up being 13th overall (Marcus Banks) 3 years later. Or, to make it even more Raptors-y, think about the Vince Carter or Alonzo Mourning situations. (Sure, those weren't with draft picks, but they were situations where the Raptors had no leverage, even though the whole league knew that Carter/Mourning were great players, and got shafted.)

    When the rest of the league knows you need to make a trade, you don't get good value back, end of story. That means we couldn't have traded him before the season started. And if he wasn't traded in the summer, he'd have been the 5th big off the bench, playing mostly garbage time, and he wouldn't be viewed the same way he is now.

  5. #25
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    When you trade a pick, you trade any of the potential players that pick could become. But if you trade a drafted player, even if it's before he plays a single game, that all changes. Remember 1999? The then-Vancouver Grizzlies drafted Steve Francis with the 2nd overall pick, but he pouted, threw a temper tantrum, and demanded a trade. Now that the whole league knew the Grizz were looking to trade him, the best deal they could find was Othella Harrington and a bunch of scrubs (yes, Othella Harrington was the "big name" in that trade), plus a future 1st-round pick that wound up being 13th overall (Marcus Banks) 3 years later. Or, to make it even more Raptors-y, think about the Vince Carter or Alonzo Mourning situations. (Sure, those weren't with draft picks, but they were situations where the Raptors had no leverage, even though the whole league knew that Carter/Mourning were great players, and got shafted.)

    When the rest of the league knows you need to make a trade, you don't get good value back, end of story. That means we couldn't have traded him before the season started. And if he wasn't traded in the summer, he'd have been the 5th big off the bench, playing mostly garbage time, and he wouldn't be viewed the same way he is now.
    But that wasn't the Raptors case - they had no gun to their heads to make any moves at the draft or even during the season, with the exception of Calderon's expiring contract.

    I mean, we supposedly drafted 'NBA-ready shooter' Ross for need and he ended up on the bench behind Alan Anderson in the rotation (go figure). Then, after trading Ed Davis and with Bargs going down, suddenly we have a lack of quality big man. The so-called "need" ended up being exactly the opposite (big vs. wing).

    Point being that roster situations can change quickly, but high demand for talented young big men as a trade asset, especially on rookie contracts, does not.

  6. #26
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    But that wasn't the Raptors case - they had no gun to their heads to make any moves at the draft or even during the season, with the exception of Calderon's expiring contract.
    We're talking about asset value here, remember? If you believe that the player's going to be a bust, that means that you believe his value is going to drop precipitously once he actually starts playing NBA games--which means you've got to trade him before that happens.

    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Point being that roster situations can change quickly, but high demand for talented young big men as a trade asset, especially on rookie contracts, does not.
    At the time of the draft, Andre Drummond didn't look like he was going to be a talented young big man.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    Remember, at the time we had JV, Eddie, Amir, and Bargs at the 4/5. After the infamous 13 game Good Bargnani stretch in Duane Casey's first year, lots of people around here (and presumably in the front office as well) were still hoping that Bargs would finally get his shit together and play up to his potential. Eddie was looking like a backup/borderline starter at the PF that any team would envy, and JV was without a doubt our center of the future. We also had a gaping hole in the depth chart on the wing (remember Alan Anderson, Mikael Pietrus et. al?).

    There were plenty of reasons to doubt Drummond. Go back and look at his college stats: they're really underwhelming. At a level where his superior athleticism should have allowed him to dominate, he actually scored at a lower volume than he has so far in the NBA: 14.1 PTS/40 vs. 15.3 in the NBA. He was also a really terrible rebounder for his size and physical gifts. At 10.6 RB/40, he was actually below average even compared to regular NCAA players (i.e., not NCAA players who eventually make it to the NBA). His elite rebounding in the NBA literally came out of nowhere. He also shot under 30% on his free throws in college. He was looking like his absolute best case scenario was DeAndre Jordan, with something like Hasheem Thabeet or Bismack Biyombo being his more likely career path. (Just try to find a player with a college profile like his who's ever managed to be successful in the NBA. He's really one of a kind.)

    All that, combined with the persistent reports that his work ethic wasn't terribly good, pointed to him most probably being a huge bust.

    The choice was between "probable bust at the one position where we don't even have any minutes available" and "seemingly NBA-ready defender with 3pt range at a position we desperately need talent". With the information available at the time, I think Ross was a good call.
    I couldn't disagree more.

    There are risks associated with every draft pick - just like Drummond had them so did Ross, Rivers, Sullinger whoever. I know people love point to Drummond and saying people questioned X or Y - but they do that with everyone. The talk just happens more often the higher of a pick a player is expected to be because they get more attention.

    We also shouldn't forget that for every person that thought he was the next DeAndre Jordan, there was another thinking he was the next Dwight Howard. Drummonds rookie season didn't come as a suprise to everyone.

    I posted this in another thread so I won't repeat it here (link), but passing on Drummond was an absolutely terrible risk vs reward move.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    When you trade a pick, you trade any of the potential players that pick could become. But if you trade a drafted player, even if it's before he plays a single game, that all changes. Remember 1999? The then-Vancouver Grizzlies drafted Steve Francis with the 2nd overall pick, but he pouted, threw a temper tantrum, and demanded a trade. Now that the whole league knew the Grizz were looking to trade him, the best deal they could find was Othella Harrington and a bunch of scrubs (yes, Othella Harrington was the "big name" in that trade), plus a future 1st-round pick that wound up being 13th overall (Marcus Banks) 3 years later. Or, to make it even more Raptors-y, think about the Vince Carter or Alonzo Mourning situations. (Sure, those weren't with draft picks, but they were situations where the Raptors had no leverage, even though the whole league knew that Carter/Mourning were great players, and got shafted.)

    When the rest of the league knows you need to make a trade, you don't get good value back, end of story. That means we couldn't have traded him before the season started. And if he wasn't traded in the summer, he'd have been the 5th big off the bench, playing mostly garbage time, and he wouldn't be viewed the same way he is now.
    There is also a difference there though - those were forced trades. Just like when a house goes into foreclosure it will sell for less than its value. But if someone buys the house to flip it rather than for its utility, it doesn't mean it will go for a similar price (or discount) to the foreclosed house.

    There was nothing forcing the Raptors to do anything had they draft Drummond and then trade him later. (Not that I'd be for that)

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    We're talking about asset value here, remember? If you believe that the player's going to be a bust, that means that you believe his value is going to drop precipitously once he actually starts playing NBA games--which means you've got to trade him before that happens.



    At the time of the draft, Andre Drummond didn't look like he was going to be a talented young big man.
    Except his size, strength, athleticism and defensive instincts......

    I'm not sure why you are attempting to make it sound like Drummond was some unskilled expected bust predraft - there were some who thought that, yes, but clearly they have been proven wrong.

  10. #30
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    We're talking about asset value here, remember? If you believe that the player's going to be a bust, that means that you believe his value is going to drop precipitously once he actually starts playing NBA games--which means you've got to trade him before that happens.



    At the time of the draft, Andre Drummond didn't look like he was going to be a talented young big man.
    Again, I go back to Colangelo's own comments that he assessed Drummond as a top 5 talent with top 3 physical tools. The only question mark BC had was mental makeup. There are few mistakes here. Even if he was a risk for 'mental makeup', then that's where coaching comes into play. I recall an extremely immature T-Mac coming into the league, but Butch Carter surrounded him with veterans and even 'life coaches' outside of basketball to shape his mental approach. Butch gets no credit for that stuff, except from his former players.

    And then again, who is Colangelo to be speaking as an authority on 'mental makeup' of a player, especially if it's being used to override top 5 talent available at the 8 spot. We spent 7+ yrs building around Mr. 'off the charts' Caliper Test himself.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Starter themasao's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    When you trade a pick, you trade any of the potential players that pick could become. But if you trade a drafted player, even if it's before he plays a single game, that all changes. Remember 1999? The then-Vancouver Grizzlies drafted Steve Francis with the 2nd overall pick, but he pouted, threw a temper tantrum, and demanded a trade. Now that the whole league knew the Grizz were looking to trade him, the best deal they could find was Othella Harrington and a bunch of scrubs (yes, Othella Harrington was the "big name" in that trade), plus a future 1st-round pick that wound up being 13th overall (Marcus Banks) 3 years later. Or, to make it even more Raptors-y, think about the Vince Carter or Alonzo Mourning situations. (Sure, those weren't with draft picks, but they were situations where the Raptors had no leverage, even though the whole league knew that Carter/Mourning were great players, and got shafted.)

    When the rest of the league knows you need to make a trade, you don't get good value back, end of story. That means we couldn't have traded him before the season started. And if he wasn't traded in the summer, he'd have been the 5th big off the bench, playing mostly garbage time, and he wouldn't be viewed the same way he is now.
    Not only is this not true (see: Carmelo Anthony; Andrea Bargnani), it wouldn't affect this situation even if it was. You don't show your hand just by drafting a big when you have a couple other quality bigs on your roster. If anything, other teams would assume we did value him, seeing as we used a top 10 pick on him.

    There's no way to know for sure, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that if BC had taken Drummond his phone would have instantly started ringing off the hook. Drummond was coveted by other GM's, and when you have a coveted asset, you have flexibility.

    Instead, he took Ross, and Joe Dumars did a little dance. There was probably some champagne as well. Just sayin.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Soooo... Ross was pretty good in the game tonight
    "You clearly don't know who you're talking to, so let me clue you in: I am not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger. A guy opens his door and gets shot, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"

    - Walter White

  13. #33
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    Let him do this every night. I'd be happy.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Superstar Rapstor4Life's Avatar
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    Best part about him after his shots started falling and Knicks were honoring his catch and shoot 3 < remember that term its important. Ross did a nice drive to the hoop cause Knicks played him too close, if he can get a go to shot and make it consistent that shit will open up for him and hes a legitimate 6th man. With Ross its a confidence and desire thing not a talent or skill thing.

    DeRozan is seeing the benefits of a respectable catch and shoot 3 in his arsenal paying off for him now.

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