Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 103

Thread: "A lot of people get into the analytic stuff ó we donít pay no attention to that..."

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    17,750
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default "A lot of people get into the analytic stuff ó we donít pay no attention to that..."

    DeRozan's take on analytics:

    He takes a hell of a lot of pressure off me and vice versa,’ DeRozan said of Gay. ‘A lot of people get into the analytic stuff — we don’t pay no attention to that because we know how much we can help this team. As long as we play on the defensive end, we don’t have to worry about scoring — nothing, none of that — because we can score the ball at will.’

    Rebuttal from Wages of Wins.com

    DeRozan is treating basketball like five games of one-on-one. In his view, long as he and Gay score and prevent their defensive assignments from scoring as much, both players are helping.
    But basketball in the NBA is not about playing five games of one-on-one; it’s one game of five-on-five. In one game of five-on-five, factors like shooting efficiency, rebounds, and turnovers matter. And since you’re not playing by yourself, your shots are taken from your teammates.
    So even if DeRozan and Gay outscore their defensive assignments, they may not be helping their team win if they are:

    Shooting poorly (hence wasting shots their teammates could have taken) and/or
    Not gaining or keeping possession of the ball
    Unfortunately for the Raptors, both DeRozan and Gay are average to below average with respect to shooting efficiency and average to below average when it comes to gaining or keeping possession of the ball (click the links to see more detailed stats at The NBA Geek). So perhaps they should consider spending more time worrying about their scoring (especially the part about scoring efficiently) — especially given that both players are not known for their defense prowess.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #2
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    2,027
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    These WoW guys can *&$^ off. My guess is that 99% of players don't pay any attention to "analytics" nor do they need to.

    Clayton Kershaw doesn't need to be an expert in fWAR to be a good pitcher any more than Lebron James needs to understand TS% or WS48 to be the greatest player of his time..

    The people paying attention to trends, stats, etc. should be the coaching staff and management teams. They should then be working with players to put those players in the best position to succeed utilizing as much information as possible from their analysis of their own team and others. If the players can't do the job required, then you get new players.

    Arencibia's problem isn't that he doesn't pay attention to OBP, it's that he can't hit and has a terrible approach at the plate he refuses to change. That has nothing to do with stats (or understanding them) and everything to do with a player who doesn't want to or can't get outside his comfort zone to improve.

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic All-Star Superjudge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Niagara
    Posts
    2,354
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Ok, I am not going to make this long, but I hate stats, always have. The reason is that SO MUCH goes into the decision making process during actual play, that some stats are affected. So A guy see's a shooting percentage fall, take Gay, however how much attention is placed upon how his teammates affected that? It isnt on a sheet. Never will be. Poor timing, shitty screens etc.

    And this is just one small example.

    Can we look at championship team who have stars with poor efficiency numbers and become bewildered?


    This doesnt mean Gay cant improve, Derozan cant improve. It means fuck the stat guys for thinking they have a sport figured out, when they dont truly understand the sport. and NO, THEY FUCKING DON'T.

  4. Like Sig, Joey, rocwell liked this post
  5. #4
    Raptors Republic Starter Fully's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    936
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    "But basketball in the NBA is not about playing five games of one-on-one; it’s one game of five-on-five. In one game of five-on-five, factors like shooting efficiency, rebounds, and turnovers matter. "

    The rebuttal from the WoW guys is ironic considering the biggest criticism of their metrics, and the basketball analytic crowd as a whole, is that they've failed to capture the impact that certain players have on one another while sharing the court.

    It is a game of five on five, which is often why I think their practice of breaking down players as individual pieces and then sticking their fingers in their ears, is misguided. It is not baseball where the game is a series of 1 vs. 1 competitions played over and over again to make up a larger game.

  6. Like CalgaryRapsFan, Buyckshot, Craiger, Joey liked this post
  7. #5
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    11,642
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    So DeRozan doesn't care a thing about making his teammate's better? I guess he didn't focus on handle and passing in the off-season... But hey, as long as he sees 20PPG on his player card when he Googles his name, I guess he's happy.

    I hate how clear it is that DeRozan is not a gifted shooter but has great athleticism and yet, instead of taking advantage of his physical gifts he'd rather try to force himself into playing a way that doesn't suit him. Ego prevails and the team suffers.

  8. Like JawsGT, JimiCliff, CalgaryRapsFan liked this post
  9. #6
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    6,748
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    So DeRozan doesn't care a thing about making his teammate's better? I guess he didn't focus on handle and passing in the off-season... But hey, as long as he sees 20PPG on his player card when he Googles his name, I guess he's happy.

    I hate how clear it is that DeRozan is not a gifted shooter but has great athleticism and yet, instead of taking advantage of his physical gifts he'd rather try to force himself into playing a way that doesn't suit him. Ego prevails and the team suffers.
    I didn't get that from those quotes at all... I simply got the impression that this team doesn't care about the critics, and will fight and claw and do everything they know they can do to win.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

  10. Like ReubenJRD, iblastoff liked this post
  11. #7
    Raptors Republic All-Star Superjudge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Niagara
    Posts
    2,354
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I didn't get that from those quotes at all... I simply got the impression that this team doesn't care about the critics, and will fight and claw and do everything they know they can do to win.
    And this is exactly what he mean't. Youre right.

  12. #8
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    786
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    Ok, I am not going to make this long, but I hate stats, always have. The reason is that SO MUCH goes into the decision making process during actual play, that some stats are affected. So A guy see's a shooting percentage fall, take Gay, however how much attention is placed upon how his teammates affected that? It isnt on a sheet. Never will be. Poor timing, shitty screens etc.
    Stats make a lot more sense for some sports than others, particularly sports that can be most effectively broken down into individual actions. Baseball, absolutely. Football, somewhat. Hockey and basketball, not very much. I'm all for people attempting to work out better statistical measurements for basketball, but any sort of superiority complex on the part of guys like the WoW guys is laughable. Most of the analytics right now are focused on rankings: reducing a player's impact to a single sortable stat, so that they can say 'this guy is better than that guy.' Maybe that's what the stat-reading public wants. And I don't blame DeRozan for ignoring it: it does him absolutely no good to to care about how some metric ranks him.

    On the other hand, I do believe there is real potential in the sort of analytics that the SportVU cameras bring, because the amount of information that it's dealing with is exponentially greater than what most analytic systems use, and because the the whole approach (as it's being implemented by Toronto and others) is based less around ranking players, and more about constructing offenses and defenses to account for the strengths and weaknesses of individual players. It's also way beyond the grasp of fans, which is fine. The level of analytics that's appropriate for fans and the level that's appropriate for coaches and GMs isn't going to be the same.

  13. Like Joey, Fully liked this post
  14. #9
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,050
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I didn't get that from those quotes at all... I simply got the impression that this team doesn't care about the critics, and will fight and claw and do everything they know they can do to win.
    Really? I didn't get that at all from his quote. My impression was of a guy who has supreme confidence in his ability to score the ball, almost to a narcisistic level. He also seemed to only be referring to himself and Gay. We were an average scoring team last season, nothing that I would say describes two guys or a team that were able to "score at will".

    I like DeMar, and I wish he was better than he is because he speaks well of this City and seems genuineley committed to turning things around in Toronto. However, and only imo, he comes off sounding like he is much better than he is with this quote. I'd like to see him walk the walk before he talks the talk.

  15. #10
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptorsss's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ottawa
    Posts
    858
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Why the hell would players care about stats? Granted some players try to go for double doubles just for the heck of it. But, its the coaches and managers jobs to figure how to get the team to win and its the players job to listen. The raptor reporters this pre-season have been pissing me off and I actually feel sorry for these millionaires having to answer these terrible questions.

    This is a non-issue for the players lets leave it that way.
    -"You canít run from me. I mean, my heart donít bleed Kool-Aid."
    -"ďI ainít no diva! I donít have no blond hair, red hair. Iím Reggie Evans.Ē

  16. #11
    Raptors Republic All-Star Superjudge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Niagara
    Posts
    2,354
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Well, James and Wade from Miami decided to really focus upon reducing turnovers, increasing their shot efficiency and raising up their percentages...but where did that get them??

  17. #12
    Raptors Republic Starter Katman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Burlington
    Posts
    221
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Some people believe in analytics like religious dogma; to the point of a "fundamentalist" belief system . They can't accept that some people don't put as much stock in it as they do.

  18. #13
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    MTL
    Posts
    1,012
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Derozan actually said "we know how much we can help this team" and some of you are saying "He doesnt care about making his teammates better"... dude, come on.
    It's easy to pick apart phrases and dissect them on the internet and think about how they should have been worded different but these words were actually said in real time and not all the time do we have time to think each word and place them in the perfect order when we are put on the spot and asked a question...

    So I actually doubt Derozan was thinking in the back of his mind as he said this that "what I really mean is that I'm going to take all the shots I want, and fuck my teammates". No, who the fuck does that? That's something girlfriends do; say one thing when the mean something completely different.
    "You clearly don't know who you're talking to, so let me clue you in: I am not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger. A guy opens his door and gets shot, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"

    - Walter White

  19. #14
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    6,748
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Really? I didn't get that at all from his quote. My impression was of a guy who has supreme confidence in his ability to score the ball, almost to a narcisistic level. He also seemed to only be referring to himself and Gay. We were an average scoring team last season, nothing that I would say describes two guys or a team that were able to "score at will".

    I like DeMar, and I wish he was better than he is because he speaks well of this City and seems genuineley committed to turning things around in Toronto. However, and only imo, he comes off sounding like he is much better than he is with this quote. I'd like to see him walk the walk before he talks the talk.
    Should read the SI.com article first, if you haven't yet. It puts the one WoW quote into a bit of context... he most certainly does mention the whole team, and not just him and Gay... "It's all on what we do as a team. If we go out there, do what we're supposed to do, it's no complaints nowhere."
    (he really does need to work on these double-negatives though, boy oh boy)

    So when I see a quote like:
    "As long as we play on the defensive end, we don’t have to worry about scoring — nothing, none of that — because we can score the ball at will."
    ...I just take away from that, that Casey has been in their ear about Defense, and that the offense will come easily if Defense is made #1 priority.

    I really don't get any of this narcisism you speak of. Demar is one of the most humble guys in the NBA.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

  20. #15
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,050
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Should read the SI.com article first, if you haven't yet. It puts the one WoW quote into a bit of context... he most certainly does mention the whole team, and not just him and Gay... "It's all on what we do as a team. If we go out there, do what we're supposed to do, it's no complaints nowhere."
    (he really does need to work on these double-negatives though, boy oh boy)

    So when I see a quote like:

    ...I just take away from that, that Casey has been in their ear about Defense, and that the offense will come easily if Defense is made #1 priority.

    I really don't get any of this narcisism you speak of. Demar is one of the most humble guys in the NBA.
    Totally agree, just the quote by itself sounds very narcisistic. DeMar is a good dude, and speaks well of the City and the team, so I'm hoping for the best outcome for him, but to make a statement like "We can score at will" is pretty bold. You have to show that you can before you actually say it.

  21. #16
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    1,120
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    Stats make a lot more sense for some sports than others, particularly sports that can be most effectively broken down into individual actions. Baseball, absolutely. Football, somewhat. Hockey and basketball, not very much. I'm all for people attempting to work out better statistical measurements for basketball, but any sort of superiority complex on the part of guys like the WoW guys is laughable. Most of the analytics right now are focused on rankings: reducing a player's impact to a single sortable stat, so that they can say 'this guy is better than that guy.' Maybe that's what the stat-reading public wants. And I don't blame DeRozan for ignoring it: it does him absolutely no good to to care about how some metric ranks him.

    On the other hand, I do believe there is real potential in the sort of analytics that the SportVU cameras bring, because the amount of information that it's dealing with is exponentially greater than what most analytic systems use, and because the the whole approach (as it's being implemented by Toronto and others) is based less around ranking players, and more about constructing offenses and defenses to account for the strengths and weaknesses of individual players. It's also way beyond the grasp of fans, which is fine. The level of analytics that's appropriate for fans and the level that's appropriate for coaches and GMs isn't going to be the same.
    First I want to say I agree with you on WoW. I think they are at the extreme of the stats debate - there is a unspoken belief that their stats (WP specifically) are so incredibly accurate the room for error is negligible. They always believe they are the smartest ones in the room, and you don't even deserve to be there with them if you don't agree with them. What makes this, for lack of a better word, disgusting, is their complete failure to use good science and do a rigorous test of their numbers. Regardless, no faithful stats guy takes their metric seriously, and the hypothesis that is their metric has been debunked numerous times and numerous ways. (I also agree with Fully on the irony of WoW's rebuttal)

    However most stats aren't really about actually about ranking players. Yes that is done by some more than others, but generally its only for 'ease of use/interpretation', since most discussions come down to comparing players anyways. ie. one can get an idea of how much impact (or combined impact) player A has vs player B. There is nothing wrong with this except that people take it too literally.

    We have to remember stats are not finite precision, they are probable predictions. Think of them like a coin flip - no one knows for certain what side of the coin will come up, but we do know there are only 2 possibilities and each has an equal chance of happening (if we don't cheat ofcourse). Over the long run (say 100 flips) we could have any combination of flips, but the most likely outcome will be close to 50/50. Basketball stats aren't saying (are indeed never saying) it will be heads or tails, what they are saying is "its most likely to be close 50 of each side over a period of time".

    I think where the problem lies is non-stats guys don't quite realize this (they think its predicting heads or tails), and the stats guys forget it (and pretend they can predict heads or tails).
    Last edited by Craiger; Wed Oct 16th, 2013 at 03:09 PM.

  22. Like octothorp liked this post
  23. #17
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    6,748
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    You have to show that you can before you actually say it.
    Can't argue with you on this. Talk is cheap.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

  24. #18
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    786
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    However most stats aren't really about actually about ranking players. Yes that is done by some more than others, but generally its only for 'ease of use/interpretation', since most discussions come down to comparing players anyways. ie. one can get an idea of how much impact (or combined impact) player A has vs player B. There is nothing wrong with this except that people take it too literally.
    Well put. My issue is really the way stats get disseminated on the internet quite often. There's been some excellent posts and discussions about stats here on RR, where people are actually trying to disseminate what goes into a statistic and what they mean. Like you say, the problem is more-so the non-stats guys trying to use stats in a more absolute way than what the stats are intended for. The discussion should be 'is this stat useful and what does it tell us, how often is it right and are there specific circumstances where it's more likely to be wrong' and instead it tends to be 'here's my argument, and oh look, here's a stat that sort of backs this up.'

  25. #19
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,062
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I didn't get that from those quotes at all... I simply got the impression that this team doesn't care about the critics, and will fight and claw and do everything they know they can do to win.
    I think the counter-point is that as noble as his sentiment it, it seems to be completely ignorant of the fact that there might be better, more effective & efficient ways to achieve the same goal.

    If the goal is to get to the the top of the hill, should we applaud the guy who struggles with rock climbing and finally reaches the top with bloodied fingers and is completely out of breath, or should we applaud the guy who steps back, sees the stairs and finds a much easier way to get to the top of the hill?

    I think DeRozan is taking things too personally, putting too much emphasis on his role of scorer (who does that sound like?), without realizing that by finding a more efficient way of being a scorer he can not only fulfill his role, but make the entire team better.

  26. Like Nilanka, Matt52, JimiCliff liked this post
  27. #20
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    799
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    These WoW guys can *&$^ off. My guess is that 99% of players don't pay any attention to "analytics" nor do they need to.

    Clayton Kershaw doesn't need to be an expert in fWAR to be a good pitcher any more than Lebron James needs to understand TS% or WS48 to be the greatest player of his time..

    The people paying attention to trends, stats, etc. should be the coaching staff and management teams. They should then be working with players to put those players in the best position to succeed utilizing as much information as possible from their analysis of their own team and others. If the players can't do the job required, then you get new players.

    Arencibia's problem isn't that he doesn't pay attention to OBP, it's that he can't hit and has a terrible approach at the plate he refuses to change. That has nothing to do with stats (or understanding them) and everything to do with a player who doesn't want to or can't get outside his comfort zone to improve.
    Players (and agents) will eventually start paying more attention to stats, since the GMs and owners paying those player salaries are paying attention to stats. The Gay trade was kind of like a watershed moment for analytics pitting new school (Hollinger & Grizz owners) vs. old school (Gay/Hollins). New school seems to have won the first round, anyway. Once the agents start telling players that stats like PER have an impact on your market value, then players will start paying more attention. I mean, not so long ago, a volume scorer like Michael Beasley would have been considered at least a borderline all-star. Now, he's being released outright and grateful to latch onto another team. There's no question that 'not paying attention to no analytics' like efficiency will ensure that Beasley's next contract won't be anywhere near what it could have been in old times. You think his agent is paying attention to that?

    Gay and Derozen don't care, because they've already been paid a fool's ransom. Guys looking for that first big contract will surely care 'bout analytics.
    Last edited by golden; Wed Oct 16th, 2013 at 05:03 PM.

  28. Like Matt52 liked this post

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •