"A lot of people get into the analytic stuff — we don’t pay no attention to that..."

[Shrub]

I've thought that every year since his rookie season to be honest, I also thought Bargnani was really going to turn the corner last year too, and that Chris Bosh would resign, and that Turkoglu would push us over the top, and that Jermaine O'Neal would solidify our back court and make us legitimate contenders, etc etc. My point? Um.. #Raptorsfan4lyfe

The difference is that these are hopes, unsupported by evidence.

I haven't thought that every year since his rookie season, because he hasn't shown that improvement.
Not in pre-season, not ever.
But now, for the first time, he is.
You can see it.
He's playing to his strengths, and making better decisions with the ball.

It's not the occassional game of 20+ points where he's in the groove, or anything like that.
It's that he seems to have a better mental approach.
That's the key.

Whether that translates to the regular season remains to be seen, don't get me wrong, but I don't think you can lump this together with the examples you listed. New players gelling is always an unknown, and what made you think Bargs was turning the corner? Because the coaches said he was? He always played the same throughout his tenure.

Don't let past disappointments cloud your vision.

[mcHAPPY]

The difference is that these are hopes, unsupported by evidence.

I haven't thought that every year since his rookie season, because he hasn't shown that improvement.
Not in pre-season, not ever.
But now, for the first time, he is.
You can see it.
He's playing to his strengths, and making better decisions with the ball.

It's not the occassional game of 20+ points where he's in the groove, or anything like that.
It's that he seems to have a better mental approach.
That's the key.

Whether that translates to the regular season remains to be seen, don't get me wrong, but I don't think you can lump this together with the examples you listed. New players gelling is always an unknown, and what made you think Bargs was turning the corner? Because the coaches said he was? He always played the same throughout his tenure.

Don't let past disappointments cloud your vision.

My opinion, which very well could be wrong because I can't get inside your head more than you can get inside DeRozan's head, is that you are taking your opinion to be a true reality when it is merely your reality and expecting others to follow suit. special1 is in the same boat except he is also expecting Apollo to share his values about what a Raptor fan is suppose to be and act like. (**For the record, I can't fault special1 there - I was in the same boat not too long ago with a number of people on these forums and on the main page. The last few years have been an eye opener for me as a person in the real world and as a Raptor fan. Maybe it is age, maturity, life experiences of late, I don't know nor do I claim to have the answer but I'm much more open to others views even if I don't agree**).

I can go through DeRozan's whole career and pick out stretches of ball where it was thought by me and other posters he finally got it... only to show another stretch of games where he showed he really doesn't get it consistently - which is the key word.

You're talking about 5 preseason games where he played 107 minutes. Based on his regular season averages for the past 3 seasons that is equal to 3 total games. You mean to tell me you can tell what he is thinking and that his new found basketball IQ/efficiency is a permanent?

I've been on a roller coaster with DeRozan for years. Colour me skeptical. I'll give two examples of why (I could give many more based on rebounds, assists, etc. but it has been hashed many times in the past):

1) 2011-12 season, he starts year off 10/16 on 3's in 5 games. Everyone pumped, psyched thinking he is legit 3 point threat; lots of media attention; lots of love. What happens next? 14/76 over next 58 games.

2) this preseason: yes, his shot selection and percentages have been really good to see. However, after an entire off season hearing about adding the 3 to his game, he has taken just 5 attempts in 5 games (3 in the first, none in 2nd, 2 in third, none in lastd 2 games) and hit zero. For all the talk about using his size and added strength to his advantage at SG, he has had 2,1,5,1,1 rebounds. For all the talk about his handle and creating, he has 1,2,2,1,0 assists. (**granted last two games should be noted he has played just 13 and 15 minutes**).


The only thing DD has done is tighten up the parts of his game he was already acceptable at: scoring points on numerous mid-range/postup opportunities and getting to the free throw line. Don't get me wrong, that is a good start. Unfortunately, based on the preseason thus far, there doesn't appear to be any other significant improvements to his game in areas that were actually his weaknesses.

I don't see any Raptor fan rooting against DeRozan. I'm certainly not - I'd love to be wrong on him, dead wrong. If he can become average in most areas and an above average scorer with above average efficiency, the Raptors likely have a steal at $9.5M. Unfortunately for that to happen he is going to have to be one of the very rare cases in the NBA's long history. You see whether DeRozan stays or whether he is eventually traded, everyone here (except maybe the true DD fanboys) are going to remain Raptor fans. It is by far in everyone's best interest whether he stays or goes that he does have a break out season and improve the areas he currently is weak in. If he does and stays, great! Raptors have a SG on a respectable contract. If he does and is traded, great! Raptors are going to get value in a trade to continue to move forward and build with.


You are right, past disappointments should not cloud your vision but it is also fair to say future hopes should not blind your expectations.

[Ryan_1523]

It's honestly not unsubstantiated, I've been around this forum for years.. I wasn't the only one with these feelings, believe me, everyone thought the exact same things last year about Derozan AND Bargnani (the other examples were of guys already "proven" somewhat, that also failed when we needed it the most, hence why I mentioned them). His defense looked better at first, shared the ball, still scoring to an extent when Casey first came in, and maybe they were, then he got injured over and over, and it didn't matter. Bargnani had everyone thinking he turned the corner.

Maybe my visions are clouded or I've been around all these dudes too long, but it's exponentially easier to say "This is the year, he's finally gotten 'it' ", especially during preseason, than it is to accept that it's probably just another flash in the pan rather than something that's going to catch for good. Matt summed it up pretty perfectly, so anything else I can say is just reiterating on an already poignant analysis and breakdown of the facts

[Shrub]

My opinion, which very well could be wrong because I can't get inside your head more than you can get inside DeRozan's head, is that you are taking your opinion to be a true reality when it is merely your reality and expecting others to follow suit.

No, not at all.
There's no "true reality", in basketball or anything else.
Ironically, the reason I decided to post at all was that it seemed to me that this is what Apollo was doing:

"No team is going anywhere with him at the starting SG spot when he's playing the way he plays. His priorities are all messed up. He'd rather ignore what he is and try to fit the mold of a marksman; square block, round hole." - Apollo

Those are pretty strong statements.
You'll note that I haven't actually stated what my expectations are.
I simply feel that DeRozan's play in the pre-season is encouraging.

[mcHAPPY]

No, not at all.
There's no "true reality", in basketball or anything else.
Ironically, the reason I decided to post at all was that it seemed to me that this is what Apollo was doing:

"No team is going anywhere with him at the starting SG spot when he's playing the way he plays. His priorities are all messed up. He'd rather ignore what he is and try to fit the mold of a marksman; square block, round hole." - Apollo

Those are pretty strong statements.
You'll note that I haven't actually stated what my expectations are.
I simply feel that DeRozan's play in the pre-season is encouraging.

Apollo can speak for himself but I think his comments regarding DD are based on the quote essentially dismissing the data statistical analysis provides while thinking himself to be more than a relatively poor individual/team defender, rebounder, and inefficient scorer who has the most of his shots as long 2s (56th in fg% among guards in the league in 16-24 foot range last year, 139th overall; 2nd most attempts). This upcoming season he might show he is more but up until now that is all he has shown.

The only thing the preseason has done is provide a sliver of optimism on an improved shot selection but 107 minutes in preseason ball is not going to sway too many people from a previous body of work of 9700 NBA minutes. I think Apollo can be counted as one of the unswayed. You can count me as one of the highly skeptical:

As an aside, things surrounding DD and his contract also do not feel very good when you consider who offered it. The only big contract that he gave out that actually became reasonable was Amir's. Kleiza, Fields, Bargnani, TJ, Calderon, Jack, Hedo, Fred Jones, Kapono..... Sweet Jesus......

[golden]

Good post.

Stats are one of many ways to analyze and focus areas to improve. To ignore them is ridiculous and only contributes to ensuring the Raptors stay average at best. At this point in time to call the raptors average over last few years would be gracious to say the least.

Bruno: Paul George want to be more 'efficient' offensive threat for Pacers
http://www.indycornrows.com/2013/10/...ive-threat-for

"I'm going to continue to do everything well offensively but the offensive end is where I want to be much more complete," he said. "It's just me being aggressive, me being much more assertive on the offensive end. I've been able to put the ball on the deck a little better and be able to create for myself and for my teammates a little better. And I'm trying to cut down on the turnovers. That's been a main focus for myself, making sure, again, I'm complete on the offensive end and much more efficient."

Well, here's a player who is paying attention to analytics, and it's showing so far. Paul George (who I previously called overrated) has had a tremendous start to the season. Good on him to recognize that being a volume shooter is not all star calibre, especially considering he just signed the big deal and is pretty much set for life.

[mcHAPPY]

Bruno: Paul George want to be more 'efficient' offensive threat for Pacers
http://www.indycornrows.com/2013/10/...ive-threat-for

"I'm going to continue to do everything well offensively but the offensive end is where I want to be much more complete," he said. "It's just me being aggressive, me being much more assertive on the offensive end. I've been able to put the ball on the deck a little better and be able to create for myself and for my teammates a little better. And I'm trying to cut down on the turnovers. That's been a main focus for myself, making sure, again, I'm complete on the offensive end and much more efficient."

Well, here's a player who is paying attention to analytics, and it's showing so far. Paul George (who I previously called overrated) has had a tremendous start to the season. Good on him to recognize that being a volume shooter is not all star calibre, especially considering he just signed the big deal and is pretty much set for life.

Good on him. Nice post.

I have been high on him. Not only because of scoring though. He rebounds, he defends, he creates, and he scores in a variety of ways.

[Axel]

Good on him. Nice post.

I have been high on him. Not only because of scoring though. He rebounds, he defends, he creates, and he scores in a variety of ways.

He's essentially running the Pacers offence too. George Hill is basically playing the SG role on offence.

[golden]

Good on him. Nice post.

I have been high on him. Not only because of scoring though. He rebounds, he defends, he creates, and he scores in a variety of ways.

Yep. I'll have to alter my stance on George. Although he does benefit tremendously from being around many talented players who attract defensive attention, as well as a vastly underrated coach, but you gotta love the attitude and results.

[mcHAPPY]

A change in tune:

"We can try to go one-on-one all day but teams are too good in this league,” - DeMar DeRozan, via: @Mike_Ganter

— Ryan Wolstat (@WolstatSun) November 14, 2013

[Mediumcore]

A change in tune:

"We can try to go one-on-one all day but teams are too good in this league,” - DeMar DeRozan, via: @Mike_Ganter

— Ryan Wolstat (@WolstatSun) November 14, 2013

What in the bloody hell is that supposed to mean? Did he just figure that out after the Houston game?

[mcHAPPY]

What in the bloody hell is that supposed to mean? Did he just figure that out after the Houston game?

I guess becoming the joke of the league makes you take notice.

[Masai Ujiri]

I don't think DeMar is actually a selfish player, he's just not capable of playing this role that he and Casey have prescribed for him.

Someone like Popovich would be getting him to maximize the things he's actually good at (slashing, post-ups, short mid-range, corner 3s, getting to the line, rebounding, etc), and minimize some of these ridiculously bad shots that he takes.

[mcHAPPY]

I don't think DeMar is actually a selfish player, he's just not capable of playing this role that he and Casey have prescribed for him.

Someone like Popovich would be getting him to maximize the things he's actually good at (slashing, post-ups, short mid-range, corner 3s, getting to the line, rebounding, etc), and minimize some of these ridiculously bad shots that he takes.

I don't think the spread in coaching ability needs to be as great as DC to Pop to get the most out of DD.

[Superjudge]

Ok, I am not going to make this long, but I hate stats, always have. The reason is that SO MUCH goes into the decision making process during actual play, that some stats are affected. So A guy see's a shooting percentage fall, take Gay, however how much attention is placed upon how his teammates affected that? It isnt on a sheet. Never will be. Poor timing, shitty screens etc.

And this is just one small example.

Can we look at championship team who have stars with poor efficiency numbers and become bewildered?


This doesnt mean Gay cant improve, Derozan cant improve. It means fuck the stat guys for thinking they have a sport figured out, when they dont truly understand the sport. and NO, THEY FUCKING DON'T.

I stand by this post, made when DD made his comments, however, I think its wise for DD to understand that he has to live up to what he is saying. If you are going to talk down people who are using stats to judge you, and your stats are questionable, you sure as shit had better be doing ALL the little things you need o do on the court to succeed when you shit isn't falling. One of those things is knowing that you have to limit shots when they aren't falling, let the game come to you and shoot smarter and more high percentage shots. Is Demar doing that right now?? I don't know, some might say no though, and they might have a good argument.

What it comes down to is this....if you claim to be a "Baller", than you had better bring it.