"A lot of people get into the analytic stuff — we don’t pay no attention to that..."

[p00ka]

People getting way to analytical and reading way too much into one off the cuff statement from a young player in a media scrum. Sheeesh

[mcHAPPY]

oh I realize that....

my response was not exactly what I'd call 'on topic' to the article

Yeah, I can't really wag a finger at that one lol

[ceez]

i like Demar a lot but he seems a little slow up top

[Dino4life]

That Rebuttal is against an argument Derozan didn't make, he actually made the opposite point. He's not treating it as Five games of one on one if his first statement is about the pressure Gay takes off of him.
How Derozan's Defender and one of the defending Bigs have to turn their heads every few seconds to see where Gay is, How they have to over commit on help defense as soon as Gay gets the Ball, etc and plenty of other stuff you can't plug into an equation. Stats are great for game planning and for practice, but you can't predict how an opposing player will act on each possession, and you have a split second to offer a reaction to that action, something that comes from skills and experience not from a spreadsheet.
While the majority will agree Derozan and Gay can use help in efficiency, Do stats account for poor play design ie Give the ball to player X and hope it goes in ? What about broken plays with 3 seconds left on the shot clock ? in that case wouldn't the stats be the ones treating the game as 5 games of one on one ?

There is a place for stats for sure, but a lot of pro-stats advocacy are from stats guys themselves trying to justify their jobs. Stats offer guidance, highlight things that need to be looked at, but in no way shape or forms do they dictate how any sports should be played, because stats will NEVER EVER EVER be as important as instincts, experience and skill, and they will Never EVER EVER account for all variables in a game, and that alone by definition (its in the stats books) will always make Stats flawed.

[Craiger]

That Rebuttal is against an argument Derozan didn't make, he actually made the opposite point. He's not treating it as Five games of one on one if his first statement is about the pressure Gay takes off of him.
How Derozan's Defender and one of the defending Bigs have to turn their heads every few seconds to see where Gay is, How they have to over commit on help defense as soon as Gay gets the Ball, etc and plenty of other stuff you can't plug into an equation. Stats are great for game planning and for practice, but you can't predict how an opposing player will act on each possession, and you have a split second to offer a reaction to that action, something that comes from skills and experience not from a spreadsheet.
While the majority will agree Derozan and Gay can use help in efficiency, Do stats account for poor play design ie Give the ball to player X and hope it goes in ? What about broken plays with 3 seconds left on the shot clock ? in that case wouldn't the stats be the ones treating the game as 5 games of one on one ?

There is a place for stats for sure, but a lot of pro-stats advocacy are from stats guys themselves trying to justify their jobs. Stats offer guidance, highlight things that need to be looked at, but in no way shape or forms do they dictate how any sports should be played, because stats will NEVER EVER EVER be as important as instincts, experience and skill, and they will Never EVER EVER account for all variables in a game, and that alone by definition (its in the stats books) will always make Stats flawed.

.....stats already have dictated, shaped and changed how sports are played (including basketball)

.... and at one point (actually for the vast majority of human history) a man standing on the moon would NEVER EVER EVER take place.

[Dino4life]

.....stats already have dictated, shaped and changed how sports are played (including basketball)

.... and at one point (actually for the vast majority of human history) a man standing on the moon would NEVER EVER EVER take place.

Dictated and influenced are two different things. Accounting for all variables is impossible, because not everything can be reduced to number, How loud the fans cheer affects each and every player differently, a 100 decibels of Cheering or booing can make or brake 1 guy, another guy can not give a crap as long as his paycheck comes in. Not everything can be reduced to an even number making for an even comparasion, Stats are an approximate, never an exact science, hence why a Standard Deviation is necessary. That's the basis of statistics so i'm not sure what you're trying to argue.

[Craiger]

Dictated and influenced are two different things. Accounting for all variables is impossible, because not everything can be reduced to number, How loud the fans cheer affects each and every player differently, a 100 decibels of Cheering or booing can make or brake 1 guy, another guy can not give a crap as long as his paycheck comes in. Not everything can be reduced to an even number making for an even comparasion, Stats are an approximate, never an exact science, hence why a Standard Deviation is necessary. That's the basis of statistics so i'm not sure what you're trying to argue.

how could one possibly know that with evidence to support it? That would require... get this... a statistic!! Shocker!

I'm not arguing against standard deviations. But a lack of perfection doesn't mean something is wrong either.

[Dino4life]

how could one possibly know that with evidence to support it? That would require... get this... a statistic!! Shocker!

I'm not arguing against standard deviations. But a lack of perfection doesn't mean something is wrong either.

That Rebuttal is against an argument Derozan didn't make, he actually made the opposite point. He's not treating it as Five games of one on one if his first statement is about the pressure Gay takes off of him.
How Derozan's Defender and one of the defending Bigs have to turn their heads every few seconds to see where Gay is, How they have to over commit on help defense as soon as Gay gets the Ball, etc and plenty of other stuff you can't plug into an equation. Stats are great for game planning and for practice, but you can't predict how an opposing player will act on each possession, and you have a split second to offer a reaction to that action, something that comes from skills and experience not from a spreadsheet.
While the majority will agree Derozan and Gay can use help in efficiency, Do stats account for poor play design ie Give the ball to player X and hope it goes in ? What about broken plays with 3 seconds left on the shot clock ? in that case wouldn't the stats be the ones treating the game as 5 games of one on one ?

There is a place for stats for sure, but a lot of pro-stats advocacy are from stats guys themselves trying to justify their jobs. Stats offer guidance, highlight things that need to be looked at, but in no way shape or forms do they dictate how any sports should be played, because stats will NEVER EVER EVER be as important as instincts, experience and skill, and they will Never EVER EVER account for all variables in a game, and that alone by definition (its in the stats books) will always make Stats flawed.

No one said they are wrong. Just said they are not absolute.

[Craiger]

No one said they are wrong. Just said they are not absolute.

[golden]

Stats are for stupid nerds with no girlfriend!!! They think they're smarter than us because of stupid math?!? I HATE STATS!! They don't tell me anything that my gut doesn't know!! I WANNA PUNCH STATS IN THE FACE!?!?!


(sarcasm implied)

Absolutely. Further to this stellar suggestion, we should do away with numbers of any sort. Each time a player makes a basket, he is awarded a random 'color' by the judges - sort of like figure skating, but again, without the numbers (because stats are baaad). The team collects those colors (and discards those they don't like) and arranges them into some sort of artistic collage. The collage/painting/artistic work is again judged by another panel of judges via secret ballot (criteria completely unknown and stat-less) and then a puff of smoke appears and a winner is declared (however win totals are never recorded).

[p00ka]

Is there a line in these sands to cross in sarcasm/snark? I'm cool with it, in fact would have fun with it, but experience shows a very hazy (or is that user-centric?) line. just wondering.

If I were Dino4life, I'd be banging my head too. Stats are fun, for some, and have have some place in the world of sport. The problems, and even outright fights, arise when they're misused in one fashion or the other. Athletes are human beings and us humans can't, or at least shouldn't, be reduced to numbers, or video game versions of ourselves. There's a lot more to the game of basketball than can be represented in numbers, no matter how "advanced" they may be. And that the truth.

[Xixak]

Really? I didn't get that at all from his quote. My impression was of a guy who has supreme confidence in his ability to score the ball, almost to a narcisistic level. He also seemed to only be referring to himself and Gay. We were an average scoring team last season, nothing that I would say describes two guys or a team that were able to "score at will".

I like DeMar, and I wish he was better than he is because he speaks well of this City and seems genuineley committed to turning things around in Toronto. However, and only imo, he comes off sounding like he is much better than he is with this quote. I'd like to see him walk the walk before he talks the talk.

Sorry but if you don't have that trait, you're not going to be successful in the NBA (or in anything really, at a high level). Confidence is key.

[Mediumcore]

Sorry but if you don't have that trait, you're not going to be successful in the NBA (or in anything really, at a high level). Confidence is key.

No need to be sorry, I agree with you. Just providing my interpretation of the quote.

[Puffer]

...Stats offer guidance, highlight things that need to be looked at, but in no way shape or forms do they dictate how any sports should be played, because stats will NEVER EVER EVER be as important as instincts, experience and skill, and they will Never EVER EVER account for all variables in a game, and that alone by definition (its in the stats books) will always make Stats flawed.

Of course, it kind of depends on your exact meaning when you wrote this and on DeMar's exact meaning when he threw out that off-the-cuff remark. The best players undoubtedly use stats to consistently improve their games.

Individual stats indicate what situations a player does and doesn't score in, where they cough up the ball and how well they do at getting the ball to their team mates. The best players then go through situation practice sessions to groove in actions that will improve their games where they need to. Jordan, Nash, LeBron all have spoken to this. They all continued to show something new in their games, every couple of years, that allowed them to improve incrementally throughout their careers. Actually, DeMar is doing this. He has been told, and seen by studying the video (because stats revealed there were weaknesses in his game) that there were areas that he could improve. He has done that.

So it's a bit disingenuous of him to say "We don't pay attention to no stats." Of course he does. His stats tell him and his coaches what he needs to work on to get better.

[mcHAPPY]

Of course, it kind of depends on your exact meaning when you wrote this and on DeMar's exact meaning when he threw out that off-the-cuff remark. The best players undoubtedly use stats to consistently improve their games.

Individual stats indicate what situations a player does and doesn't score in, where they cough up the ball and how well they do at getting the ball to their team mates. The best players then go through situation practice sessions to groove in actions that will improve their games where they need to. Jordan, Nash, LeBron all have spoken to this. They all continued to show something new in their games, every couple of years, that allowed them to improve incrementally throughout their careers. Actually, DeMar is doing this. He has been told, and seen by studying the video (because stats revealed there were weaknesses in his game) that there were areas that he could improve. He has done that.

So it's a bit disingenuous of him to say "We don't pay attention to no stats." Of course he does. His stats tell him and his coaches what he needs to work on to get better.

Good post.

Stats are one of many ways to analyze and focus areas to improve. To ignore them is ridiculous and only contributes to ensuring the Raptors stay average at best. At this point in time to call the raptors average over last few years would be gracious to say the least.