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Thread: Not just J.V on this team!

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    Default Not just J.V on this team!

    Why does everyone keep talking about helping Jonas grow? He has great potential and I get that. But what about Ross and Quincy. And Demar deserve to finally experience a winning culture. And not to mention Amir who has worked his tail off even when hurt because he has PRIDE! Not to mention the players who were on a playoff team the last couple years who were traded to a losing culture. Those guys alone I believe, will and should want to work hard to not only prove their former employer wrong for letting them go, but thanking T.O for giving them another chance?

    I think everyone on the team needs to either get back to being part of a winning culture or start being part of one. I for one am very sick and tired of hearing the word TANK! We will never get the number one pick ever again. And what respectable professional would want to go play for an organization that practice that culture?

    Everyone want to win a championship before they retire. Even J.V will someday leave if we do not win games year after year.

    Enough already!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    I can't speak for anyone else but I think 'winning culture' is just a meaningless buzzword.

    To me the concept of 'winning culture' is derived from obtaining talent, and for Toronto to obtain the talent necessary to win (alot and consistently) its going to require some losing first.

    Personally I think there has been enough of this 'lets just win games and build a culture' that has not done anything for this team but set them back to the point they have to restart all over again. It simply has not worked. Anytime this team has gotten anywhere of significance or looked like it had promise in the future (and mind you this is very relative), its been on the back of high draft picks.

    Until the day Toronto is picked up and moved to the American sun belt, or becomes seen as on par to NY, anything other than building through the draft will simply result in watching this teams 'best' players walk time and time again.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    For me the main difference is that JV has all-star potential, where as the ceiling for Ross is average starter, and the ceiling for quincy is below average starter.

    JV's skill set and potential is not easily replaced where as QA (who i do love) is pretty much cut for the JYD/Reggie Evans cloth.

    It would be great if both those guys improve, but if they don't they are easily replaced. Whether or not this team makes it out of the first round in the next 3 years probably depends on his growth more than anyone else's.

    If Ross improves how many more wins is that going to get us? What about Acy?

    So you can talk all you want about not tanking, but IMO Jonas beasting the whole league is probably the only guaranteed way to make sure Ujiri doesn't blow it up. So you probably should be cheering for JV to develop more than anyone else too if you don't want this team to tank.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Quote Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
    Why does everyone keep talking about helping Jonas grow? He has great potential and I get that. But what about Ross and Quincy. And Demar deserve to finally experience a winning culture. And not to mention Amir who has worked his tail off even when hurt because he has PRIDE! Not to mention the players who were on a playoff team the last couple years who were traded to a losing culture. Those guys alone I believe, will and should want to work hard to not only prove their former employer wrong for letting them go, but thanking T.O for giving them another chance?

    I think everyone on the team needs to either get back to being part of a winning culture or start being part of one. I for one am very sick and tired of hearing the word TANK! We will never get the number one pick ever again. And what respectable professional would want to go play for an organization that practice that culture?

    Everyone want to win a championship before they retire. Even J.V will someday leave if we do not win games year after year.

    Enough already!
    No offense to Ross and Quicy but they are a dime a dozen.

    DeRozan is a quarter a dozen.

    Young, 7', athletic, determined, TWO-WAY centres with a motor are a rarity among rarities.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    So each of you think that I am way off with my points? Sure I love JV. But one player doesn't make a team. Remember when the raps won all those games last year before Jose and Ed got traded? That was because of the team finally playing as a team. Even with Casey's sometime bonehead decisions. So yes JV is key to moving forward, but let us not forget to encourage the other young guys too. If DD was on a better team, he would be a better player today, because he would have good players to learn from.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    No offense to Ross and Quicy but they are a dime a dozen.

    DeRozan is a quarter a dozen.

    Young, 7', athletic, determined, TWO-WAY centres with a motor are a rarity among rarities.
    THIS!!!

    ---

    After summer league, I told that he's receiving too much hype, he attracted national media with his aggressive play and I'm not sure if it's good or bad thing. Let's be realistic, he looks stronger, he looks more efficient but he's still RAW. As much as I like JV, I just don't see him breaking out this season.

    ESPN guy said ( Matt's thread. ) that seeing growth from JV is more important than wins and loses. I'm the Raps fan, and I want to win, to win big fast...

    I remember the draft night when we drafted JV. I was devastated tbh. I thought we'll have Andris Biedrins and nothing more, but now we all can see the real potential this guy has. It's important to push him to his limits, develop him even if it costs wins for our team. It couldn't be better year to lose by developing our full of potential center - who knows, maybe luck we'll be on our side and we'll take the pick in 14 draft.

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    Quote Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
    So each of you think that I am way off with my points? Sure I love JV. But one player doesn't make a team. Remember when the raps won all those games last year before Jose and Ed got traded? That was because of the team finally playing as a team. Even with Casey's sometime bonehead decisions. So yes JV is key to moving forward, but let us not forget to encourage the other young guys too. If DD was on a better team, he would be a better player today, because he would have good players to learn from.
    If DD was a better talent, Toronto would be a better team, because he would have made players around him better.

    It is all about talent.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
    So each of you think that I am way off with my points? Sure I love JV. But one player doesn't make a team. Remember when the raps won all those games last year before Jose and Ed got traded? That was because of the team finally playing as a team. Even with Casey's sometime bonehead decisions. So yes JV is key to moving forward, but let us not forget to encourage the other young guys too. If DD was on a better team, he would be a better player today, because he would have good players to learn from.
    I would take Ed over DD 10 times out of 10. We won those games because we had depth at PF and PG.

    fyi http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2013/1...orlando-magic/
    Last edited by akashsingh; Sun Oct 20th, 2013 at 11:30 AM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
    So each of you think that I am way off with my points? Sure I love JV. But one player doesn't make a team. Remember when the raps won all those games last year before Jose and Ed got traded? That was because of the team finally playing as a team. Even with Casey's sometime bonehead decisions. So yes JV is key to moving forward, but let us not forget to encourage the other young guys too. If DD was on a better team, he would be a better player today, because he would have good players to learn from.
    Thats exactly why myself (and I'm sure many others) want this team to start a legitimate rebuild.

    The Raptors played .500 ball between the end of their terrible start and the Gay trade (same as after the Gay trade, without the benifit of the month of the tank).

    Is the current team + whatever development from the guys you mentioned + the future changes demanded due to salaries (Gay, Lowry, Amir particularily) and the salary cap going to be enough vs the development of the league around them to win substantially more than .500 over the long run?

    I just don't see it.

    I'm with Matt52 and ezz_bee. For this team to get anywhere, as assembled, it absolutely depends on Jonas becoming a legitimate franchise player. A top 5-10 player in the league, and in the near term. For as good and productive I think Jonas will be, I think there is little chance that happens.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If DD was a better talent, Toronto would be a better team, because he would have made players around him better.

    It is all about talent.
    and thats just the thing.

    That a 'better team' makes players better is at best an unprovable hypothesis. But what we do see over and over is 'better players' (ie. allstar+ calibre players) make teams better, no matter how they are obtained (draft, trade or FA). From Boston to Miami to LA to SAS to NY to Chicago. We have witnessed it time and time again.

    At the same time we've seen plenty of good teams have players who never 'develop' or never become good. SAS, for all the suprises and general greatness that comes out of that team, there are duds to. We've also seen great/good players come out of bad teams (OKC was terrible for years and we watched 3 allstar+ calibre players and 1 near (should be) allstar come through that roster)

    If Demar was on the Spurs would they make him better? Or would he have been sent down to the D-league because he didn't fit a role or need on that team? Would he be a forgotten player, unlike on a bad team like Toronto where he gets an important role and a ton of usage?

    I think the best thing a team can do for a young player they see alot of potential in is let them see the ball and the floor alot. A whole hell of a lot. This is one of the additional problems with a 'win now' approach - Jonas may get to see the floor alot, but he won't get the opportunity to see the ball alot. At best that will simply delay his development and make it take longer to get a confident view of his real ability (rather than potential).

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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    and thats just the thing.

    That a 'better team' makes players better is at best an unprovable hypothesis. But what we do see over and over is 'better players' (ie. allstar+ calibre players) make teams better, no matter how they are obtained (draft, trade or FA). From Boston to Miami to LA to SAS to NY to Chicago. We have witnessed it time and time again.

    At the same time we've seen plenty of good teams have players who never 'develop' or never become good. SAS, for all the suprises and general greatness that comes out of that team, there are duds to. We've also seen great/good players come out of bad teams (OKC was terrible for years and we watched 3 allstar+ calibre players and 1 near (should be) allstar come through that roster)

    If Demar was on the Spurs would they make him better? Or would he have been sent down to the D-league because he didn't fit a role or need on that team? Would he be a forgotten player, unlike on a bad team like Toronto where he gets an important role and a ton of usage?

    I think the best thing a team can do for a young player they see alot of potential in is let them see the ball and the floor alot. A whole hell of a lot. This is one of the additional problems with a 'win now' approach - Jonas may get to see the floor alot, but he won't get the opportunity to see the ball alot. At best that will simply delay his development and make it take longer to get a confident view of his real ability (rather than potential).
    This whole season should be about determining what you have with JV and asset accumulation.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Lots of diehard fans looking forward to the season I see.

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    Kinda have to agree with you here Stahmenah_Vybz ...
    JV is great, his two-way motor at his position and rare and an awesome thing to have ... but it's kinda annoying listening to the interviews say with KL or DD and half the questions being about JV ... It's annoying and I believe it has to irritate them too ...

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    This whole season should be about determining what you have with JV and asset accumulation.
    I mostly agree with what you and Craiger are arguing. JV is key.

    However Amir, Tyler, Quincy, Landry, and Kyle are all productive players, with all of these guys adding wins, tanking is kindof impossible, especially without Bargnani to counter-act their productivity. So, "building through the draft." in our case, should mean stocking up on draft picks, most likely our own and those obtained by trade, which will be mid/late first rounders at best.

    It seems to me that this means that good scouting is more important to us than draft position. We need to find those undervalued mid/late first rounders, second rounders and unsigned players.

    Our biggest hole at the moment is our inefficient, overrated, ball-stopping wings. DeMar and Rudy. Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with A starting line up including JV, AJ, and KL. Even putting some league average starters on the wing who could score efficiently and defend competently, with these guys would create a winning team.

    As for the Bench, Fields, Hansbourgh and Acy are great, Gray is sufficient, one of Augustin, Buycks or Stone needs to emerge. Ross needs to prove himself. Assuming two of these later 4 can provided productive minutes, we have enough depth for a decent 9/10 man rotation. That as, assuming we rid ourselves of Gay and DeRozan and manage to get the efficient/defending wings to bring it all together.

    Now, if Gay and DeMar can become these kinds of wings, that would be great, but as far as I know, ineffecient players becoming efficient is even more rare that inconsistent defenders becoming consistent, the chance of both of then pulling off both these things seems very small.

    So, I think this whole season is not about JV, but about fixing the leak at the wings. This is what will determine the future of the team.

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    Probably because he's our only blue chip prospect with All Star potential on the roster. Did that never cross your mind. The fact that he's a 7 foot 2 way C also makes him the biggest priority on the team to develop and develop quickly.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If DD was a better talent, Toronto would be a better team, because he would have made players around him better.

    It is all about talent.
    Thats an unfair statement.... he is a pretty dam good talent and its not like his four years hes been on a good team... who exactly was he playing with to help him out? If you replaced JV for DeMAr those 4 years the teams record would be the same. JV is a great player but I find it funny how our 2nd best asset behind JV is sold short time and time again. JV is great and very rare talent but hes not goddam Jesus.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Makes sense to put the extra attention on JV. He's the one guy I feel comfortable saying will still be here when the team makes a turn around and becomes competitive. Heck it makes sense to start building around him now if you think he can truly be an all star one day.

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    Quote Rapstor4Life wrote: View Post
    Thats an unfair statement.... he is a pretty dam good talent and its not like his four years hes been on a good team... who exactly was he playing with to help him out? If you replaced JV for DeMAr those 4 years the teams record would be the same. JV is a great player but I find it funny how our 2nd best asset behind JV is sold short time and time again. JV is great and very rare talent but hes not goddam Jesus.
    It is actually a very fair statement and could be applied to any of the proclaimed corner stones BC touted for the last 5-6 years.

    As for your claim regarding replace DeMar for JV, well, that is some good hubris right there. The funny thing is exactly what happened with DeMar is exactly what people, myself included, hope for JV. DeMar was forced in to the starting lineup as a rookie. From his 2nd year onwards DD was force fed shots, minutes, and opportunities - despite inefficiency and lack of contribution on the defensive end. He has been given every single opportunity to display what he can do on the NBA stage.

    We know DD is not a rare talent in the NBA. No one, myself included, is implying he is useless or worthless.... but he is hardly exceptional or even well above average either.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    However Amir, Tyler, Quincy, Landry, and Kyle are all productive players
    Oh geez. It's stuff like this that reminds me we're Toronto fans.

    There's two names on that list that deserve the moniker of "productive player," Kyle and Amir. Of those two, both would basically be high-quality sixth men on any serious contender rather than starters. Kyle has the potential to be a proper starter but has never lived up to it. Amir is a brilliant sixth man we're playing as a starter because we don't have anybody better. And then... oy.

    Tyler does two things really well: he hustles for the ball and he draws fouls. That is it. I think his contract this year is decent, but he's not a starter-quality PF, he's not even sixth man level; he's a fine fourth big and foul-drawing specialist. Three million a year is about what he should be making. I know in Toronto "paying people what they would get anywhere else" is KIND OF LIKE a bargain, but really it's not.

    Landry is, right now, a slightly slower version of a playmaking no-shot point guard. Because he has no shot, the other team doesn't bother guarding him and he actually makes life harder for his teammates on the floor as a result because now they're getting doubled up when he has the ball, so he's not going to create well off the dribble; he works best as being that guy who's the hinge in a double-pass situation, and Landry's very smart and knows how to set those up. Again: a specialist. At three million Landry would be a great ninth or tenth guy for a contender. But he's, what, our seventh?

    And Quincy is a fun young rook who takes too many jumpers and rebounds energetically, which is to say: he's like every other second-rounder young big playing in the league today. He is eminently replaceable.

    We don't have a quality bench here. We just don't. Quality bench guys on serious teams are guys like Jarrett Jack, Jamal Crawford, Carl Landry, Jared Dudley, that level.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    I would take Ed over DD 10 times out of 10. We won those games because we had depth at PF and PG.

    fyi http://www.rantsports.com/nba/2013/1...orlando-magic/
    Ed?
    Ed Davis??

    Oh Fuck, this is good, please elaborate on this one, keeping in mind Ed Davis is an average at best, undersized, borderline starter in the NBA.

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