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Thread: Not just J.V on this team!

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Matt52 wrote:

    "There comes a point in time when the potential is likely never to be reached. There are always exceptions (trades, change in role, new coach, etc) but I'm of the firm belief you know what you have for the over whelming majority by the end of year 2."



    AND don't forget our friend JV aka our saviour. You can't have it both ways.....OR do you already know what we have with JV? Will he be an All-Star in the near future? Can you tell by year 2?
    JV has already shown he is, at minimum, a starting NBA centre in this league. Do you know how difficult that is to come by?

    You really need to take a step back and look at the big picture.... or at the very least take an honest look at the last 5 years.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    There are certainly players that you can't predict after year 2, whether they will be legit NBA players or not, and while I personally feel Year 3 is the best indicator, I get Matt's point. Most players you can tell fairly early whether they got it or not.

    Also, if you read more closely, Matt said at the end of year 2 and I think it is fair to say that by April, we will all have a very good idea of what JV will be.
    It is nice to know some people actually read the posts.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  4. #43
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
    So why exactly did we give Barg all these years to try and get better and all of the sudden it's not OK for guys like Ross or even DD to have a fair shake at getting support?
    That is a great way to lose credibility. Let's repeat the same mistakes that got the last guy fired.

  5. #44
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Yea - Just like "we" thought Andrea Bargnani could be an all star one day.

    I say you let him play hard and see how good he becomes. I think its foolish to build around someone who isn't already an all-star or well on their way to become one. Is JV going to be a better player than Andre Drummond or Derrick Favors or Enes Kanter?

    I am done rebuilding. You get players to come here because Toronto is simply one of the best cities in the WORLD. PERIOD. you start a winning atmosphere and the players will come! You rebuild and JV will get blown apart on a crappy team.
    Bold one: why don't you look at their head to head matchups in European junior tournaments. Also at this time, Kanter has an extra year in the league - which is huge - granted he has hardly had a chance to shine in Utah.

    Bold two: Is this Bryan Colangelo? Because if you are done rebuilding now, get ready for some disappointing ball followed by a rebuild in 2 seasons.

    Bold three: Maybe for a year or two. However, if a rebuild is done properly there will be some significant talent on the team by the end of his rookie contract (you know, when he is 23). Also, did DeMar get blown apart on a crappy team? It sounds like he did alright from the love he is receiving. The bottom line is talent. Toronto does not have enough of it at the elite level nor do they have enough of it in their depth. The best way for Toronto to accumulate talent is to draft it or trade for it (interesting enough draft picks and prospects obtained through the draft is also what teams are looking for in return). The free agency route, with this current core, is NOT going to happen so all the hyperbole regarding best city in the world means diddly in free agency when you have more of your cap space used up than you can offer a top free agent - a core of Gay, Lowry, DD, Amir, JV, and the cap holds for remaining roster spots takes the Raptors past a max contract offer for a free agent.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  6. #45
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I am done rebuilding.
    I am always curious about these types of statements, does that mean you are going to stop being a fan if the team rebuilds against your wishes? I am seriously curious here, because if I stopped following a team because they did something I didn't want, then I would have stopped following the Raps a long time ago. Isn't the point of being a fan of sticking with them through it all and getting to enjoy it all when they finally achieve greatness?

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bold three: Maybe for a year or two. However, if a rebuild is done properly there will be some significant talent on the team by the end of his rookie contract (you know, when he is 23). Also, did DeMar get blown apart on a crappy team? It sounds like he did alright from the love he is receiving. The bottom line is talent. Toronto does not have enough of it at the elite level nor do they have enough of it in their depth. The best way for Toronto to accumulate talent is to draft it or trade for it (interesting enough draft picks and prospects obtained through the draft is also what teams are looking for in return). The free agency route, with this current core, is NOT going to happen so all the hyperbole regarding best city in the world means diddly in free agency when you have more of your cap space used up than you can offer a top free agent - a core of Gay, Lowry, DD, Amir, JV, and the cap holds for remaining roster spots takes the Raptors past a max contract offer for a free agent.
    JV's next contract seasons should be the target for this franchise. By then, we should have some young players getting traction in the league, and JV at the center position entering his prime. It will be glorious.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I am always curious about these types of statements, does that mean you are going to stop being a fan if the team rebuilds against your wishes? I am seriously curious here, because if I stopped following a team because they did something I didn't want, then I would have stopped following the Raps a long time ago. Isn't the point of being a fan of sticking with them through it all and getting to enjoy it all when they finally achieve greatness?



    JV's next contract seasons should be the target for this franchise. By then, we should have some young players getting traction in the league, and JV at the center position entering his prime. It will be glorious.
    Ding ding ding! WINNER!

    The Raptors, already getting a winner in JV and lucking out that he was a year late starting his rookie deal, have a tremendous opportunity to have some serious talent on their roster by the end of 2015. Two solid years of drafting combined with a whole lot of money coming off the books and then already with 2 picks in 2016.

    I'd rather wait a couple of years to do watch it done right versus continue with Colangelo's patch work.... this roster is still built around and for Bargnani!
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #47
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    Whomever thinks JV's going to have a breakout season is disillusioned. If he can play all 82 games at 11-4 i'd be ridiculously happy.

    Once he's tasted the playoff's and finally realizes he needs to stop playing for the Lithuanian national team in order to train at an nba level during the off-season, then we'll see some big changes.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote drunkmunky wrote: View Post
    Whomever thinks JV's going to have a breakout season is disillusioned. If he can play all 82 games at 11-4 i'd be ridiculously happy.

    Once he's tasted the playoff's and finally realizes he needs to stop playing for the Lithuanian national team in order to train at an nba level during the off-season, then we'll see some big changes.
    Very unlikely. Lithuania loves their basketball team. Playing for their country in FIBA events means a lot to them. Can't see JV (likely the best Lithuanian baller since Aryvdas Sabonis) turning his back on the program if he's healthy.

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  12. #49
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote drunkmunky wrote: View Post
    Whomever thinks JV's going to have a breakout season is disillusioned. If he can play all 82 games at 11-4 i'd be ridiculously happy.

    Once he's tasted the playoff's and finally realizes he needs to stop playing for the Lithuanian national team in order to train at an nba level during the off-season, then we'll see some big changes.
    You mean like Dirk? Or Nash? Or Parker? Or countless American players who represent their country in the summer? And I guess we should expect all the Canadian nba kids just out or coming out to not represent Canada?

    I'm not sure if this is ignorance, stupidity, or a petty attempt at trolling which I succumbed to.

  13. #50
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote drunkmunky wrote: View Post
    Whomever thinks JV's going to have a breakout season is disillusioned. If he can play all 82 games at 11-4 i'd be ridiculously happy.

    Once he's tasted the playoff's and finally realizes he needs to stop playing for the Lithuanian national team in order to train at an nba level during the off-season, then we'll see some big changes.
    Wow....This will be insulting, but this is one of the absolute stupidest statements I've ever read on these forums (that wasn't intentionallly stupid...or was it?)

    Playing for a national team IN NO WAY hinders a player's ability to grow and develop....and you could even argue it helps, especially for guys who become key cogs on their national team. Nowitzki, Ginobili, Parker, Gasol....and all the none-superstars on their respective teams who play year after year, never suffered from it. And it only starts to be too hard for the grind when they're well into, or even after their primes. It was even great for Canada's own Nash, who clearly benefitted by gaining confidence during his leading of team Canada.

    I totally am ok with Jonas playing for Lithuania every year, especially since it's one of the top 5 programs in the world. It's certainly better than playing in Drew League, or trying to improve aspects of a team game alone in a gym with a single trainer helping you. And yes, you can work on certain skills, like moves, more diligently on your own, but splitting the summer to also include high level team play allows the player to try out and get reps on what he's worked on well before the NBA season. Again, the only negative is when guys get older (at least 30+) and need to reduce the grind.

  14. #51
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    I don't believe that training to represent your national team, is at the same level as the nba.

    Ain't nothing wrong with that.

    Training during the off-season to become an elite all star nba player requires a lot of dedication to how nba players play. Eurobasket is totally different. Different plays, different sets. Differences in program that can distract someone from the NBA season.

    I'd rather see JV train with nba trainers for the entire off-season than see him go off and play in eurobasket.

  15. #52
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure if this is ignorance, stupidity, or a petty attempt at trolling which I succumbed to.
    Way to make thing's personal you twat lol.

    Back on topic. You see all-star players like Lebron, Kobe, etc. opt out of representing their nations because they start to focus on what really matters in their careers. Yes, they've already been there and done that, but it's clear that the focus, concentration, and the workout regiment required to become a championship player in the league demands 150% and anything beyond that can become a distraction.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Wow....This will be insulting, but this is one of the absolute stupidest statements I've ever read on these forums (that wasn't intentionallly stupid...or was it?)
    Do you school kids love picking fights or what? Go ahead and feel insulted. It's just the truth in my view.

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    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bold one: why don't you look at their head to head matchups in European junior tournaments. Also at this time, Kanter has an extra year in the league - which is huge - granted he has hardly had a chance to shine in Utah.

    Bold two: Is this Bryan Colangelo? Because if you are done rebuilding now, get ready for some disappointing ball followed by a rebuild in 2 seasons.

    Bold three: Maybe for a year or two. However, if a rebuild is done properly there will be some significant talent on the team by the end of his rookie contract (you know, when he is 23). Also, did DeMar get blown apart on a crappy team? It sounds like he did alright from the love he is receiving. The bottom line is talent. Toronto does not have enough of it at the elite level nor do they have enough of it in their depth. The best way for Toronto to accumulate talent is to draft it or trade for it (interesting enough draft picks and prospects obtained through the draft is also what teams are looking for in return). The free agency route, with this current core, is NOT going to happen so all the hyperbole regarding best city in the world means diddly in free agency when you have more of your cap space used up than you can offer a top free agent - a core of Gay, Lowry, DD, Amir, JV, and the cap holds for remaining roster spots takes the Raptors past a max contract offer for a free agent.
    I don't really wanna get into a back and forth because i do respect your passion as a Raptor Fan BUT just some months ago you were pleading for us to go out and trade young talent (ED/Demar) for Rudy and now your crying cap space!!?? Come on man.....at least be consistent!

    The draft is a crap shoot. Some talent can be drafted later and many drafted early don't pan out due to injuries or just BUST. Guys like MKG, Derrick Williams, (insert name here) is a dime a dozen. I'm saying the draft is great, but you don't ruin your team for a chance at luck.

    You wanted Rudy, so you should be at least willing to see where we're at with him for half the season. If not, then why make the push to have him here??

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    Go spend your time venting your anger out on Andrew Wiggin's for not representing the nation to prepare for playing in University this year. Playing for your nation, even though you guys think so, is not on the top of the list for players.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    It's certainly better than playing in Drew League, or trying to improve aspects of a team game alone in a gym with a single trainer helping you. And yes, you can work on certain skills, like moves, more diligently on your own, but splitting the summer to also include high level team play allows the player to try out and get reps on what he's worked on well before the NBA season. Again, the only negative is when guys get older (at least 30+) and need to reduce the grind.
    I'd rather Jonas train an entire summer with Arvydas Sabonis or Hakim Olajuwon like many other players have opted to do to enhance their NBA game.

    All this BS about the Lithuanian coach complaining that JV got too big. All those crappy defensive schemes that were played during the Lithuanian games where JV wasn't utilized properly and for most of the time was a 3rd stringer on the bench... Huge waste of time imo.

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    Quote drunkmunky wrote: View Post
    Way to make thing's personal you twat lol.

    Back on topic. You see all-star players like Lebron, Kobe, etc. opt out of representing their nations because they start to focus on what really matters in their careers. Yes, they've already been there and done that, but it's clear that the focus, concentration, and the workout regiment required to become a championship player in the league demands 150% and anything beyond that can become a distraction.
    Just wtf are you talking about. Both guys have represented USA multiple times and it's never even remotely compromised their performance or durability. Kobe played in 2008, after a finals appearance, and before 2 championships in a row. And it's not like he skipped earlier years to train. One summer he got married...One summer he had the rape issues to deal with....A couple of other summers he had actual physical problems (like surgery) to deal with and so was unable to play...He never avoided it to focus on NBA training. And LeBron has been playing at every major global tournament except in 2010, when he was a free agent that summer so you really can't conclusively say it was to train, as lots of guys would take a summer off when making that kind of change.

    I mean, Dirk played basically every summer and didn't win a championship for years....Gasol as well. It never changed the player they were or prevented them from being all they could be.

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    Special1 wrote:

    I am done rebuilding.

    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I am always curious about these types of statements, does that mean you are going to stop being a fan if the team rebuilds against your wishes? I am seriously curious here, because if I stopped following a team because they did something I didn't want, then I would have stopped following the Raps a long time ago. Isn't the point of being a fan of sticking with them through it all and getting to enjoy it all when they finally achieve greatness?



    JV's next contract seasons should be the target for this franchise. By then, we should have some young players getting traction in the league, and JV at the center position entering his prime. It will be glorious.
    Are you Serious?? Of course i will stay with my team NO MATTER WHAT. The point i was making is I don't want to rebuild and i don't even want to think of it. I don't want to go through losing season after losing season. Haven't we lost enough??

    Losers continually dream about the draft and the possibilities. Winners try to win and let nature take its course. Sounds to me like your back in dream world.....

    So JV will be entering his prime and we'll pick all the best players in the upcoming 2 drafts right??? Even if we had a number 1 pick, there are no guarantees that said player will be healthy (see Portland) or an all-star (see many teams with top 5 picks in the last few years).

    We have 4 top 10 picks on our team right now.....JV, TR, RG, DD. Who says whoever you draft is going to be better than any of these guys?? Its the draft my friend - BC not picking Andre Drummond shows you how things can go. Players who people think will be stars, turn into role players, and others who are discarded actually breakout.

  22. #59
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    Quote drunkmunky wrote: View Post
    I'd rather Jonas train an entire summer with Arvydas Sabonis or Hakim Olajuwon like many other players have opted to do to enhance their NBA game.

    All this BS about the Lithuanian coach complaining that JV got too big. All those crappy defensive schemes that were played during the Lithuanian games where JV wasn't utilized properly and for most of the time was a 3rd stringer on the bench... Huge waste of time imo.
    This summer he was used quite well. He didn't play as much partly because of inexperience, partly because a lot of teams at Eurobasket lacked interior play and tried to go fast and small. He was easily one of their best players, and given it was his first significant role with the team (he was not a 3rd stringer, so you clearly didn't even watch any of the games), we can only expect his role to increase in years to come, so he'll be a focal point and get legit experience.

    Also, where the fuck do you think Sabonis lives? You don't think he gets advice and training from him when he goes back to Lithuania in the summers? So you'd want him to take a trip to Lithuania but NOT play with the national team? Sigh....

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    Disclaimer: I'm not taking sides. Just positing this in attempt to gain clarification from the unpopular point of view.

    Perhaps what drunkmunky means is that with Jonas being young (and still having a lot to learn about the NBA game, at a position that often takes longer to develop than wings), it would be in the Raptors' best interest to have Jonas be trained/groomed in the most efficient way possible.

    In order to do this, I would assume we need to exclude Jonas learning sets he'll never run in Toronto, under a set of rules he'll never see in Toronto, under the guidance of a coaching staff he'll never play for in Toronto.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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