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Thread: Not just J.V on this team!

  1. #81
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It is a very good and worthwhile point. It should also be noted he was well in to his 30's though. Dirk was a huge factor in that team but the Chandler acquisition along with great coaching would have had more of an effect on their winning than Dirk not playing in the summer.

    I definitely think once a player hits late 20's to 30 he should stop playing. I was very much opposed to Calderon playing given his injury history and age.
    Oh, I didn't say they won the championship solely because Dirk took the summer off, but was responding to a comment about how Dirk worked with his national team every summer and it didn't hurt him. Just a point of interest (not proof of anything) that Dirk's greatest success was when he hadn't played for Germany in 2 years. Perhaps Dirk is not the greatest example to use?

    I agree that age is a big factor in the value, or detriment, of playing for a national team in the summer. The thing is, just as I agree that players should back off as they get older, I also see fault in a very young Euro, trying to adjust to a much more rigorous season, and playing a very different style of the game, spending his summer playing the style he already has ingrained in him since he was a child. Given another year or two of adjusting to and understanding the NBA game, he would have an easier time switching between the two, I would think.

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  3. #82
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    @ white men can't jump

    Looking at today's article on Rudy Gay and his development for improved shot selection, less rushing shots, and tackling weaknesses in his game in addition to working with Olajuwon for a short period of time. Combating his physical weakness in his back.

    Demar and the praise that Casey has given him with his off-season progress that has resulted in a much touted and improved Defence. The mention of his 3's has been infinite even though we haven't had much of a chance to see it with their limited playing time.

    Lowry and his recognition that he needs to become the commander of this team and the recognition that Casey has given back to him as the leader on the court.

    What skill has JV learned over the off season besides getting big? His interviews are about his 'physicality'. Only since training camp have we heard that he is working on his 'verticality' for jumping and blocking like Hibert.

  4. #83
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    Quote drunkmunky wrote: View Post
    @ white men can't jump

    Looking at today's article on Rudy Gay and his development for improved shot selection, less rushing shots, and tackling weaknesses in his game in addition to working with Olajuwon for a short period of time. Combating his physical weakness in his back.

    Demar and the praise that Casey has given him with his off-season progress that has resulted in a much touted and improved Defence. The mention of his 3's has been infinite even though we haven't had much of a chance to see it with their limited playing time.

    Lowry and his recognition that he needs to become the commander of this team and the recognition that Casey has given back to him as the leader on the court.

    What skill has JV learned over the off season besides getting big? His interviews are about his 'physicality'. Only since training camp have we heard that he is working on his 'verticality' for jumping and blocking like Hibert.
    Wow, seriously man? Have you seen Jonas finishing hooks with both hands? Have you seen him being more comfortable passing out of the block or when he's on the move? Have you seen him being far more patient than last year in general when he's got the ball? He didn't just get bigger, and if that's what you think you're totally blind and/or ignorant. Every aspect of his game is better, including his D, which he really got to improve WITH Lithuania. They were a far better defensive team with him on the court as he did a good job protecting the rim and being a physical force down low...which you talk about how many "bigs" they had, but they really didn't, since none were actually comparable to JV in terms of being able to shoulder that load down low.

    What have we seen from the Raps? The only guy who looks like a different player on the floor is DeMar. And I expected him to improve because he has that drive, and he's still young enough to hope or that.

    Lowry? It's nice that he's not fat anymore, but his game hasn't really changed at all. What evidence is there that he actually improved as a floor general and leader? None.

    Gay? The biggest things they've talked about with him are his body and eyesight. So far he seems to be pretty much exactly the same player as he's been his whole career.

    It's like you're taking the preseason media garbage about these guys as the definitive information source.

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  6. #84
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    But he didn't train all summer to reinforce it. The style is different, but the rule differences are minor, and what a player has to work on is really not at all affected by that difference in style, especially as a true C, which is maybe the most consistent position across the globe in terms of what's demanded from a guy, whereas PFs, wings and PGs all have very different roles in international play.

    I mean, you can't have it both ways. You can't say it's great for them to play for the national team but it's bad for their development. There is not a single player I can think of whose development it's hindered. And in most cases it has actually helped guys become better NBA players. So I really don't get why anyone would be against it.
    I wasn't saying I want it both ways, but my point was that at this stage of his career, perhaps working within FIBA rules/style is not great for his much needed NBA development. As far as roles of a C being the same, c'mon man. Basket interference, 3-second rule, contact allowed, the way the rest of the team plays ("whereas PFs, wings and PGs all have very different roles') create big differences in how a C needs to play.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Wow, seriously man? Have you seen Jonas finishing hooks with both hands? Have you seen him being more comfortable passing out of the block or when he's on the move? Have you seen him being far more patient than last year in general when he's got the ball?

    He didn't just get bigger, and if that's what you think you're totally blind and/or ignorant. Every aspect of his game is better, including his D, which he really got to improve WITH Lithuania. They were a far better defensive team with him on the court as he did a good job protecting the rim and being a physical force down low...which you talk about how many "bigs" they had, but they really didn't, since none were actually comparable to JV in terms of being able to shoulder that load down low.
    Of course I'm not blind or ignorant or else the discussion wouldn't have gone into this depth. I wanted you to tell me what you thought Jonas was improving and in my view. I think all of the upside you were talking about, he was already doing all of that in the month of March last season when he was recognized as the rookie of the month.

    The strength that he's gained has helped that tremendously, but he still has conditioning issues playing for longer periods of time at the NBA level. The fact that he had no competition during the summer league or eurobasketball emphasized his growth, but not at an nba level.

    I don't disagree that the Lith. national team was better when he was on the court, but only when he was on the court. I grew extremely frustrated that JV sat on the bench so often in order to allow players like the Twin's as well as the 2 other guys ( I forgot their names ) to play. There was this one game where JV only played in the 3rd and got pulled, or pulled in the first 5 minutes for stupid fouls.

    It was as if the Lith coach punished him for playing Summer League and NBA ball. I don't think that environment is right for him to continuing growing as a potential future nba all-star.
    Last edited by drunkmunky; Mon Oct 21st, 2013 at 04:14 PM.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    What have we seen from the Raps? The only guy who looks like a different player on the floor is DeMar. And I expected him to improve because he has that drive, and he's still young enough to hope or that.

    Lowry? It's nice that he's not fat anymore, but his game hasn't really changed at all. What evidence is there that he actually improved as a floor general and leader? None.

    Gay? The biggest things they've talked about with him are his body and eyesight. So far he seems to be pretty much exactly the same player as he's been his whole career.

    It's like you're taking the preseason media garbage about these guys as the definitive information source.
    I've only quoted Dwayne Casey, the only reputable non-media based or media-biased source for team performance. If you haven't seen the difference in how Demar and Lowry play during their limited time in pre-season, you should revisit their performance tonight *hopefully they don't suck balls to completely destroy my point*

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    For those you arguing that Jonas is not Jesus Christ, i would have to agree. However, a bunch of people at Grantland have started to refer to him as Jonas Christ Valancuinas.

    Jonas knows what people say about him on this thread and he never forgets.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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  11. #88
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    Quote drunkmunky wrote: View Post
    I've only quoted Dwayne Casey, the only reputable non-media based or media-biased source for team performance. If you haven't seen the difference in how Demar and Lowry play during their limited time in pre-season, you should revisit their performance tonight *hopefully they don't suck balls to completely destroy my point*
    Dwayne Casey is biased. Of course he is. He's not going to throw a player under the bus. He's also been praising jsut about everyone, including the likes of Austin Daye, who clearly is far away from being a valuable roster piece, despite any "hard work" that the coach is praising him for.

    I have seen the difference in DeMar. I said that already. He very obviously has seemed to improve this offseason. But I also think he very obviously has been improving on the right trajectory basically for at least the last 2-3 summers. Coincidentally, or not, that is when he started playing with the USA select team. Somethig he has admitted changed his approach and attention to detail when training.

    Lowry though? Lowry is not doing anything he hasn't done previously in his career. Last year he was out of shape, and the PG situation was not good for his type of personality. But in Houston he played better than anything he's shown while with the Raps, including in this small preseason sample that he's done well in. He's also in a contract year and has a lot at stake. But in terms of development...such as improving skills or better understanding how to run his team....he is hardly ahead of where he was last year. In fact, his timing and passing as a distributor are still evidently rusty (which I expect to improve with more games), since there's clearly absolutely no way to keep those sharp unless you keep playing at a high level in the summer.

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I wasn't saying I want it both ways, but my point was that at this stage of his career, perhaps working within FIBA rules/style is not great for his much needed NBA development. As far as roles of a C being the same, c'mon man. Basket interference, 3-second rule, contact allowed, the way the rest of the team plays ("whereas PFs, wings and PGs all have very different roles') create big differences in how a C needs to play.
    Different rules don't change the role a lot. A big man is still expected to do things from the point of view of playing in the post, or in the middle, or whatever you want to call it. Being an anchor who can score and suck in the help D. Being able to pass out of it. Being a threat to hit mid-range jumpers to pull the opposing big away from the bucket. And on D it's being a rim protector. Clogging space in the lanes so that wings can't cut/drive. The differences in rules are really minor details. It doesn't really change how you should rotate, or hedge, or play in the post, etc...The style of play is less different for bigs than it is for the other positions.

    Whereas the other positions....PF is very often a stretch 4 style of player that is not too different in skill set from the wings. And wings are expected to generally be better shooters, and be good at moving without the ball, which is supposed to stick a lot less in the international game. It's not like the NBA where wings get a lot more freedom to attack as iso players, be it from the perimeter or the post. And the same goes for PG, where they are also not supposed to let the ball stick too much. Really the style a non-big has to play is quite different in international ball. You could even see it by how team USA refocused their program.

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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Different rules don't change the role a lot. A big man is still expected to do things from the point of view of playing in the post, or in the middle, or whatever you want to call it. Being an anchor who can score and suck in the help D. Being able to pass out of it. Being a threat to hit mid-range jumpers to pull the opposing big away from the bucket. And on D it's being a rim protector. Clogging space in the lanes so that wings can't cut/drive. The differences in rules are really minor details. It doesn't really change how you should rotate, or hedge, or play in the post, etc...The style of play is less different for bigs than it is for the other positions.

    Whereas the other positions....PF is very often a stretch 4 style of player that is not too different in skill set from the wings. And wings are expected to generally be better shooters, and be good at moving without the ball, which is supposed to stick a lot less in the international game. It's not like the NBA where wings get a lot more freedom to attack as iso players, be it from the perimeter or the post. And the same goes for PG, where they are also not supposed to let the ball stick too much. Really the style a non-big has to play is quite different in international ball. You could even see it by how team USA refocused their program.
    You mean like how Dwight played all of 16 MPG in the 2008 Olympics, with Bosh the only other "C" playing 17 MPG,, and in the 2012 games, Chandler played all of 11 MPG, while Davis, the only other "C", played 7 MPG,,,,, because the C position is the same deal as the NBA? I see

  14. #91
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    Edit.

    I think the conversation was pretty wrapped up.
    Last edited by drunkmunky; Mon Oct 21st, 2013 at 10:51 PM.

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