Not just J.V on this team!

[Nilanka]

We have 4 top 10 picks on our team right now.....JV, TR, RG, DD. Who says whoever you draft is going to be better than any of these guys?? Its the draft my friend - BC not picking Andre Drummond shows you how things can go. Players who people think will be stars, turn into role players, and others who are discarded actually breakout.

The fear of making bad picks is not evidence against the draft.

It's reason for ensuring you have a competent management team.

[mcHAPPY]

Way to make thing's personal you twat lol.

Back on topic. You see all-star players like Lebron, Kobe, etc. opt out of representing their nations because they start to focus on what really matters in their careers. Yes, they've already been there and done that, but it's clear that the focus, concentration, and the workout regiment required to become a championship player in the league demands 150% and anything beyond that can become a distraction.

And those players, including Nash, do that in their late 20's. JV is 21.

How can saying JV averaging 11-4 be anything less than stupidity? The points, no issue. The rebounds though - he already averaged 6 as a rookie.

I suggest you look at the definitions of the words used and their context. There was nothing personal.

[drunkmunky]

I'm not sure if this is ignorance, stupidity, or a petty attempt at trolling which I succumbed to.

This is what I mean by a personal attack.

Back on topic. JV demands a lot more attention after Summer League. He'll have double teams so I expect there to be a lot more competition down in the post. I'd be happy with 11-4 in a season where he can play all 82 games.

[drunkmunky]

Disclaimer: I'm not taking sides. Just positing this in attempt to gain clarification from the unpopular point of view.

Perhaps what drunkmunky means is that with Jonas being young (and still having a lot to learn about the NBA game, at a position that often takes longer to develop than wings), it would be in the Raptors' best interest to have Jonas be trained/groomed in the most efficient way possible.

In order to do this, I would assume we need to exclude Jonas learning sets he'll never run in Toronto, under a set of rules he'll never see in Toronto, under the guidance of a coaching staff he'll never play for in Toronto.

I really do believe that there is a more effective and efficient use of his off-season time in order to develop into an All-star.

[special1]

Disclaimer: I'm not taking sides either.

BECAUSE I could care less if JV plays for Lithuania or not. I think it's his personal choice and hopefully if he does, then he finds other ways to make up for it (i.e. personal coach who's familiar with our system, etc.)

[white men can't jump]

Disclaimer: I'm not taking sides. Just positing this in attempt to gain clarification from the unpopular point of view.

Perhaps what drunkmunky means is that with Jonas being young (and still having a lot to learn about the NBA game, at a position that often takes longer to develop than wings), it would be in the Raptors' best interest to have Jonas be trained/groomed in the most efficient way possible.

In order to do this, I would assume we need to exclude Jonas learning sets he'll never run in Toronto, under a set of rules he'll never see in Toronto, under the guidance of a coaching staff he'll never play for in Toronto.

But is it more efficient? You say it's with the wrong plays, rules, coaches....but in the summer, away from the team, they are not running structured plays, they are playing no high level ball regardless of rules, and the impact of the coaching staff is marginal since most guys regimen is pretty easy to deduce. For example everyone knew Jonas had to get stronger this summer and work on his post game....it didn't matter that Casey was the coach, and it wouldn't have mattered if I was the coach as he'd have gotten the same things to focus on. And in fact, given Jonas also needed to work on D...where can he do this wihtout going to the national team? Summer league is even more garbage. Drew league and similar things are even more garbage than that.

The only advantage to not playign for a national team is being able to work on your body (not your game) in the most "efficient" way possible. But even then, at Jonas' age it's not a big factor, as he clearly was able to gain the mass he needed. It's a bigger factor when guys get older and need to rest and rebuild themselves in the offseason.

[drunkmunky]

Just wtf are you talking about. Both guys have represented USA multiple times and it's never even remotely compromised their performance or durability. Kobe played in 2008, after a finals appearance, and before 2 championships in a row. And it's not like he skipped earlier years to train. One summer he got married...One summer he had the rape issues to deal with....A couple of other summers he had actual physical problems (like surgery) to deal with and so was unable to play...He never avoided it to focus on NBA training. And LeBron has been playing at every major global tournament except in 2010, when he was a free agent that summer so you really can't conclusively say it was to train, as lots of guys would take a summer off when making that kind of change.

I mean, Dirk played basically every summer and didn't win a championship for years....Gasol as well. It never changed the player they were or prevented them from being all they could be.

I would argue that those players have already had extensive NBA exposure throughout their careers, even at an early age besides Dirk and Gasol. The cultural, and linguistic impact on a player from another country is much greater and throwing them in situations where they have to cross continents and play different styles of ball slows down their progress.

I would argue that even though Dirk and Gasol are amazing players, they don't play the true 5 man position that takes forever to cultivate in the NBA game. Both of them are stretch 5's that have always had a command of the english language. Comments from practice earlier in the weekend still mention that JV has a lack of familiarity with english on the defensive end of the ball, something that would help in game communications.

[mcHAPPY]

This is what I mean by a personal attack.

Back on topic. JV demands a lot more attention after Summer League. He'll have double teams so I expect there to be a lot more competition down in the post. I'd be happy with 11-4 in a season where he can play all 82 games.

It was not a personal attack. I questioned if your comment was ignorance, stupidity, or a petty attempt at trolling.

If JV averages 11-4 this season, then he is a borderline starter and he would have shown regression. It would be a huge fail in my opinion.

Last season I said 8-6 and I would be very happy. This year I'm looking for 13-8.5. I"ll be happy with 76 games.

[p00ka]

Just wtf are you talking about. Both guys have represented USA multiple times and it's never even remotely compromised their performance or durability. Kobe played in 2008, after a finals appearance, and before 2 championships in a row. And it's not like he skipped earlier years to train. One summer he got married...One summer he had the rape issues to deal with....A couple of other summers he had actual physical problems (like surgery) to deal with and so was unable to play...He never avoided it to focus on NBA training. And LeBron has been playing at every major global tournament except in 2010, when he was a free agent that summer so you really can't conclusively say it was to train, as lots of guys would take a summer off when making that kind of change.

I mean, Dirk played basically every summer and didn't win a championship for years....Gasol as well. It never changed the player they were or prevented them from being all they could be.

The interesting thing is that the year Dirk did win an NBA championship, and Finals MP, was when he hadn't done anything with the German national team for the past 2 summers. Just saying.

I'm generally in favour of players playing for their national teams, but as Nilanka pointed out, the style of play, the rules, the roles are all very different than what Jonas needs for NBA development. That makes a bigger difference for a 21 year old Euro, with 1 year under his belt, than a NBA veteran North American. To excel in the NBA, Jonas has to shed life-long FIBA style mentality/play, not train all summer to reinforce it. I think that's where drunkmunky is coming from.

[drunkmunky]

It was not a personal attack. I questioned if your comment was ignorance, stupidity, or a petty attempt at trolling.

If JV averages 11-4 this season, then he is a borderline starter and he would have shown regression. It would be a huge fail in my opinion.

Last season I said 8-6 and I would be very happy. This year I'm looking for 13-8.5. I"ll be happy with 76 games.

If you're in a conversation with someone and you ask if they are ignorant, stupid, or petty in order to instigate an argument, that's personal and it doesn't have anything to do with the topic of discussion.

I don't want to see JV with his summer league 18-10 kind of stat if he gets injured. I think his consistency will be key this season, something that we criticize T.Ross for. Also factor in some of the play from the improved 4s on our bench when compared to last year. Hansborough, Daye and MAYBE even Novak might command more rebounds. We didn't get much of that last year.

[mcHAPPY]

The interesting thing is that the year Dirk did win an NBA championship, and Finals MP, was when he hadn't done anything with the German national team for the past 2 summers. Just saying.

I'm generally in favour of players playing for their national teams, but as Nilanka pointed out, the style of play, the rules, the roles are all very different than what Jonas needs for NBA development. That makes a bigger difference for a 21 year old Euro, with 1 year under his belt, than a NBA veteran North American. To excel in the NBA, Jonas has to shed life-long FIBA style mentality/play, not train all summer to reinforce it. I think that's where drunkmunky is coming from.

It is a very good and worthwhile point. It should also be noted he was well in to his 30's though. Dirk was a huge factor in that team but the Chandler acquisition along with great coaching would have had more of an effect on their winning than Dirk not playing in the summer.

I definitely think once a player hits late 20's to 30 he should stop playing. I was very much opposed to Calderon playing given his injury history and age.

[Nilanka]

But is it more efficient? You say it's with the wrong plays, rules, coaches....but in the summer, away from the team, they are not running structured plays, they are playing no high level ball regardless of rules, and the impact of the coaching staff is marginal since most guys regimen is pretty easy to deduce. For example everyone knew Jonas had to get stronger this summer and work on his post game....it didn't matter that Casey was the coach, and it wouldn't have mattered if I was the coach as he'd have gotten the same things to focus on. And in fact, given Jonas also needed to work on D...where can he do this wihtout going to the national team? Summer league is even more garbage. Drew league and similar things are even more garbage than that.

The only advantage to not playign for a national team is being able to work on your body (not your game) in the most "efficient" way possible. But even then, at Jonas' age it's not a big factor, as he clearly was able to gain the mass he needed. It's a bigger factor when guys get older and need to rest and rebuild themselves in the offseason.

I acknowledge the benefit of fierce competition...Representing Lithuania is certainly better than Summer League or the Drew League, as you stated.

But I also think there's an element of confusion learning how to defend with/without a defensive 3-second rule and with/without basket interference rules, for example.

For the record, I think Jonas is intelligent enough to transition back and forth from Europe to the NBA pretty easily. But in terms of "efficient" learning, it's an interesting debate.

[white men can't jump]

The interesting thing is that the year Dirk did win an NBA championship, and Finals MP, was when he hadn't done anything with the German national team for the past 2 summers. Just saying.

I'm generally in favour of players playing for their national teams, but as Nilanka pointed out, the style of play, the rules, the roles are all very different than what Jonas needs for NBA development. That makes a bigger difference for a 21 year old Euro, with 1 year under his belt, than a NBA veteran North American. To excel in the NBA, Jonas has to shed life-long FIBA style mentality/play, not train all summer to reinforce it. I think that's where drunkmunky is coming from.

But he didn't train all summer to reinforce it. The style is different, but the rule differences are minor, and what a player has to work on is really not at all affected by that difference in style, especially as a true C, which is maybe the most consistent position across the globe in terms of what's demanded from a guy, whereas PFs, wings and PGs all have very different roles in international play.

I mean, you can't have it both ways. You can't say it's great for them to play for the national team but it's bad for their development. There is not a single player I can think of whose development it's hindered. And in most cases it has actually helped guys become better NBA players. So I really don't get why anyone would be against it.

[drunkmunky]

But is it more efficient? You say it's with the wrong plays, rules, coaches....but in the summer, away from the team, they are not running structured plays, they are playing no high level ball regardless of rules, and the impact of the coaching staff is marginal since most guys regimen is pretty easy to deduce. For example everyone knew Jonas had to get stronger this summer and work on his post game....it didn't matter that Casey was the coach, and it wouldn't have mattered if I was the coach as he'd have gotten the same things to focus on. And in fact, given Jonas also needed to work on D...where can he do this wihtout going to the national team? Summer league is even more garbage. Drew league and similar things are even more garbage than that.

The only advantage to not playign for a national team is being able to work on your body (not your game) in the most "efficient" way possible. But even then, at Jonas' age it's not a big factor, as he clearly was able to gain the mass he needed. It's a bigger factor when guys get older and need to rest and rebuild themselves in the offseason.

When you're talking about Defence, I don't even want to bother posting that Gif of JV waling his arms to 'kung-fu fighters' during the eurobasket games... That kind of play isn't helping anyone, whether it be the Lithuanian team or his NBA career.

Jonas got to play a lot more ball at summer league than he did for the Lithuianian team, to the point where their coach complained about his play time. During his games with Lithuiania, he was benched a LOT because of the makeup of the team and how many bigs were on the court.

As Jonas becomes more infamous, he'll receive more doubles, more people fouling him. He'll need to learn individual skills beyond his hook and his mid range shot in order to compete with starting or all-star 5's. We all know individual players learn skills and improve their own game during the offseason. That level of training, and the intent of the training is based solely on an nba level performance, not drew league, not summer or eurobasket.

Training independently with NBA staff, much like Rudy or Lowry and DeRozan in the off-season is the way to nba level player development.

[special1]

The fear of making bad picks is not evidence against the draft.

It's reason for ensuring you have a competent management team.

How can you have a competent management team if we're constantly losing and aiming for the lottery!!?? You find someone who aims to lose competent? We're not the celtics....at least they have a championship within the last 5 years.

My point is basically that the grass is not always "greener on the other side". If your gonna trade away most of the top 10 picks you currently have, you BETTER make sure that you end up with better talent than you had. If you cannot guarantee that you will get better talent (*reminder* draft is a crap shoot) you should play to win the games and give an honest effort to put a winning team on the floor NOW. It's not a fear of making bad picks....its a recognition of reality and a choice to keep your integrity.

That being said if we have a major injury or two.....I accept the fact that we'll be heading to the lottery.