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For the people that think DeRozan is overpaid

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  • #16
    Xixak wrote: View Post
    There's nothing telling you to enter this thread. Stay out and post in a different one or log out of the forum.
    Take it easy and tone down your reactions to other posters. You started a thread on a topic that has already been beat to death, starting with another talking point for one side of the argument. Just as you are allowed to have an opinion, so are others. I don't want to see any more snark from you against posts that disagree with your post/thread.

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    • #17
      DeMar's contract is not that bad in and of itself. The problem is that the team is capped out and hasn't made the playoffs yet. They have to trim the excess somewhere, even if some contracts are in the "slightly overpaid but still excusable" range.
      "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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      • #18
        S.R. wrote: View Post
        DeMar's contract is not that bad in and of itself. The problem is that the team is capped out and hasn't made the playoffs yet. They have to trim the excess somewhere, even if some contracts are in the "slightly overpaid but still excusable" range.
        I agree with this philosophy, but I think Demar will be a VALUE contract by trade deadline next year, which complicates the rational. If you've got a value contract, but are lacking in talent, do you trade your value contract for more talent but lower value, or do you keep the value contract... I think derozan will only fit in the "slightly overpaid but still excusable" range for this year, which means you may not want to trade him.
        "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

        "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

        "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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        • #19
          ezz_bee wrote: View Post
          It seems like i'm flip-flopping here, because i have been very critical of Demar. Mainly, i've argued that we won't see that much from him that we've haven't seen already, but I've also been critical of his contract.

          Derozan's contract kicks in this year.
          9.5 in 2013-2014
          9.5 in 2014-2015
          9.5 in 2015-2016
          9.5 in 2016-2017 (I believe it's a player option, which i assume he WON"T) pick up.

          I think 9.5mil in 2015-2015 is going to be pretty good, and 9.5 in 2015-2016 is going to be VERY GOOD. So basically, you got one year of slightly overpaid, 1 year of fair market value, and a 1 year at below market prices. The other thing with Demar that people (including myself) OVERLOOK when when comparing salaries is minutes played/durability. Demar has been extremely durable. I'm not sure he's missed a game since he started becoming a regular starter. If you were to break down what he's paid into actual game time minutes, demar would be paid less/minute played versus pretty much anyone, which would increase his value.

          All in all, I don't think there's a lot to complain about with demar's contract. And I'm very confident that two years from now, no one is going to complain about it (unless there's a serious injuriy, which would seem unlikely). Demar contract is absolutely fine.


          His defense and 3 pt shooting is another matter, but even if Demar doesn't improve those things (and he almost certainly WON"T) he is not overpaid for the bulk of this contract.
          This contract was offered much in the same manner of Amir, Calderon, and Bargnani.

          We have to remember 2 things:
          1) DeMar has not played on his new contract yet.
          2) DeMar was offered his contract before his 4th year began.

          My opinion is he is not worth the contract. There are a lot of volume shooters who do little else in the league and there are not many of them making $9.5M - but again, see #1 above.

          So maybe DeRozan makes the contract look like a great move like Amir did.
          Maybe the contract becomes a noose like Calderon's did for a few seasons.
          Or maybe it is a total fail like Bargnani's.
          There is always a risk when you are extrapolating potential a few seasons out.

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          • #20
            I think an angle that hasn't been considered yet (sorry, I stopped reading after all the petty insults :P) is Greg Monroe vs. Derrick Favors. Monroe is not receiving an extension, and will become a restricted free agent. Favors received an extension with several incentives to push it over the $50M mark. It will be interesting to see what kind of contract Monroe gets next year in comparison to Favors.

            This parallels the DeRozan situation because we didn't have to offer him an extension, and could have made him an RFA a la Monroe. We can't necessarily compare a big to a guard, but we can compare Monroe to Favors and perhaps extrapolate the percentage difference between the two contracts to DeRozan's. This assumes both Monroe and Favors are at least on a comparable value scale in the NBA, which I believe they are.

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            • #21
              Marz wrote: View Post
              I think an angle that hasn't been considered yet (sorry, I stopped reading after all the petty insults :P) is Greg Monroe vs. Derrick Favors. Monroe is not receiving an extension, and will become a restricted free agent. Favors received an extension with several incentives to push it over the $50M mark. It will be interesting to see what kind of contract Monroe gets next year in comparison to Favors.
              At this point, Monroe is a flat-out better player than Favors. However, the difference between the two is that there's no competition for Favors in Utah. Jazz management were 100% sure Favors was their man when they extended him. I can say with certainty that Monroe would be getting the same contract from Detroit if Drummond was not there.
              Twitter - @thekid_it

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              • #22
                isaacthompson wrote: View Post
                At this point, Monroe is a flat-out better player than Favors. However, the difference between the two is that there's no competition for Favors in Utah. Jazz management were 100% sure Favors was their man when they extended him. I can say with certainty that Monroe would be getting the same contract from Detroit if Drummond was not there.
                I think flat-out is a bit of an exaggeration. Monroe is a better offensive player, but Favors is better by roughly the same margin on D. Monroe's problem right now is that he's a below average defender at either PF or C. Favors is above average at both those positions, and has a very good chance to be one of the best defensive bigs in the game. I would still give the edge to Monroe, but Favors wouldn't have to do too much for me to consider him more valuable at least, if not "better".

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                • #23
                  isaacthompson wrote: View Post
                  At this point, Monroe is a flat-out better player than Favors. However, the difference between the two is that there's no competition for Favors in Utah. Jazz management were 100% sure Favors was their man when they extended him. I can say with certainty that Monroe would be getting the same contract from Detroit if Drummond was not there.
                  That is key. I would add Smith as well.

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                  • #24
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    That is key. I would add Smith as well.
                    It's not Smith so much as Detroit has one Designated Player slot for their five-year extension and they want to save it for Drummond. Monroe obviously wouldn't have been happy at being told he's second choice between the hot new thing, so Detroit wisely didn't even bother considering Monroe is their best trade bait.

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                    • #25
                      Xixak wrote: View Post
                      http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/230320/Hayward-Likely-To-Get-$50M+-Extension-From-Jazz


                      That's the going rate for young, talented wing players these days. We saw Tyreke get 11M a year, now we're seeing Hayward get 12+. That 9.5M for DeRozan is starting to actually look like somewhat of a bargain.

                      I'm sure people are now going to try and argue that either:

                      a.) Hayward is significantly better than DeRozan
                      b.) Hayward is also significantly overpaid, and we shouldn't use other bad contracts to justify our own.
                      I would question a few things here:

                      1) Who leaked this?
                      2) Who has to gain by having this 'informed' and anonymous information come out?
                      3) What is more important? A player who puts up numbers but the team doesn't win or a player who contributes to what GM's believe to be essential to winning? It should be noted the only year Utah finished under .500 with Hayward was his rookie season with Sloan's departure and Deron Williams' trade.
                      4) Are you comparing apples to apples - DeRozan's 4th year to Hayward's 3rd year? Or are you comparing apples to apples - 3rd year to 3rd year?
                      5) Doesn't a 23 year old Hayward get the same courtesy of potential that a 23/24 year old DeRozan receives - especially when he has already produced more?
                      5) Is it fair to compare a 4th option in Hayward on a veteran team competing for the playoffs directly to DD who has been a 1st or 2nd option since year two depending on injuries? That works both ways: maybe Hayward would lose all his redeeming qualities if he played a role like DD or maybe he would step up to the challenge and show what he can really do as a first or second option (should find out this year).
                      6) Isn't Hayward better than DD? He is more efficient by a considerable margin (especially in DD's 3rd year). per36 minutes looking at simple stats, Hayward is on par with a 4th year DD, for example on points he scores .3 less on 1.5 less shot attempts. He is a better defender. His advanced are consistently better than DD. Comparing 3rd year to 3rd year, Hayward is even more impressive.
                      7) Doesn't Hayward contribute to winning? It is tough to look at contribution on the floor due to all the factors of teammates, circumstances, etc. but his on/off court is positive 5.3 while DD's is negative 1.4; same type results for net OffRtg/DefRtg, WS, and WS/48.



                      After answering all these questions, I come to three conclusions:
                      1) This was put out there by Hayward's agent and the $11M per year may not be what is being offered.
                      2) Hayward is a better player than DeRozan - there is little question in my opinion, happy to disagree.
                      3) The Jazz are better off waiting if they are at $12M per year. Sure someone might offer it - then you can say it is market value and match it. However, that is about $2M off starting a max contract. This is agent games. I like Hayward but by no stretch is he worth $12M just like DD is not worth $9.5 based on what each player has shown. The problem with DD is we don't know what the market was/is for him.


                      There is no question DD is the more gifted athlete. However, I think Hayward is the much more skilled and intelligent player.

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                      • #26
                        magoon wrote: View Post
                        It's not Smith so much as Detroit has one Designated Player slot for their five-year extension and they want to save it for Drummond. Monroe obviously wouldn't have been happy at being told he's second choice between the hot new thing, so Detroit wisely didn't even bother considering Monroe is their best trade bait.
                        They can still offer an extension starting at nearly $50M though and no other team is going to be able to offer a 5th year either.

                        But regardless of the 5th year designated player, teams should be taking the advantage RFA provides. Detroit is in a similar situation to Toronto last year in that by waiting they create more cap space adn hence financial flexibility.

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                        • #27
                          Brandon wrote:
                          For the money Hayward and Favors are getting this year, Utah had better win a lot of games, at least 50, or else why not at least let them test RFA?
                          I don't believe Hayward is worth $12M. I dont' think Utah is seriously offering that. I think that is an agent leak. But at least Hayward has been giving playing time to show what he can do.

                          Favors is interesting though and exactly what I fear DC is doing with JV. You need to give these young guys minutes and opportunity early. Utah really still don't know what they have after 3 years with Favors and now they signed him for nearly $50M. What happens this year if, when given opportunity, he is not what they thought?

                          One good thing about DD is that he was given every opportunity to show what he can do.

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                          • #28
                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            I don't believe Hayward is worth $12M. I dont' think Utah is seriously offering that. I think that is an agent leak. But at least Hayward has been giving playing time to show what he can do.

                            Favors is interesting though and exactly what I fear DC is doing with JV. You need to give these young guys minutes and opportunity early. Utah really still don't know what they have after 3 years with Favors and now they signed him for nearly $50M. What happens this year if, when given opportunity, he is not what they thought?

                            One good thing about DD is that he was given every opportunity to show what he can do.
                            Agreed, $12M seems steep for a player who has produced in a limited role only thus far, but here are a few tid-bits from the Point Forward piece on this...

                            Hayward, on the other hand, has been a versatile and deferential contributor — a complement in an offense built around the post-up savvy of Al Jefferson.

                            Utah’s offense highlighted Hayward’s cutting and shooting without fully exploring his abilities off the dribble. Coach Tyrone Corbin did well to find more for Hayward to do last season, but the structure of the team never allowed for the 23-year-old forward to be anything more than a supporting part.

                            Hayward is unequivocally better equipped for the task. He has the court awareness, handle and passing ability to stretch out his game, potentially to the point of validating a deal of this magnitude.

                            Because of the confines of Hayward’s previous role and the fickle nature of basketball talent in general, the Jazz can’t yet know whether this kind of potential investment will be entirely worthwhile. All they can do is make an intimately educated guess based on Hayward’s skills, personality and substantial market appeal, a combination that would seem to put an extension squarely in the team’s best interests.

                            Look at the bolded skills that Hayward has. Versatile, cutter, shooter, court awareness, handle, passing....DD doesn't have that many tools in the tool box. IMO, versatility is the most important. Versatility is the new height ~ everyone wants a couple guys on their team who are versatile and teams would rather have a skilled, versatile player who is undersized.

                            This last bolded section tells all of the situation. The Jazz are making a gamble based on Hayward's skills, personality, and the fact that Utah isn't a priority destination. Could it work out? Could it hinder them? Both are absolutely possible.

                            But like Nilanka said earlier, using other people's mistakes are justification for your own is basically jumping off the bridge with Bobby.

                            http://nba.si.com/2013/10/21/utah-ja...?sct=nba_t2_a9
                            Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                            If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                            • #29
                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              I don't believe Hayward is worth $12M. I dont' think Utah is seriously offering that. I think that is an agent leak. But at least Hayward has been giving playing time to show what he can do.

                              Favors is interesting though and exactly what I fear DC is doing with JV. You need to give these young guys minutes and opportunity early. Utah really still don't know what they have after 3 years with Favors and now they signed him for nearly $50M. What happens this year if, when given opportunity, he is not what they thought?

                              One good thing about DD is that he was given every opportunity to show what he can do.
                              If playing over 23 minutes a game is not enough to figure out what you have, I don't know what is.
                              Twitter @WJ_FINDLAY

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                              • #30
                                I think Favors is worth every penny. I had him pegged as one of the best players of his draft class and was waiting to see when he'd get the opportunity to prove it. It was nice of Utah to give him that much though because they could have argued that he hasn't had enough minutes to prove himself. He's going to be solid.

                                DeRozan.. I don't mind how much he is making right now. It's not the worst contract in the world. For me I still think the decision to give him the contract was idiotic, because you painted yourself into a corner for it and you didn't need to. For me I was more against the principles behind making deals like that. DeRozan could conceivably earn 80% of that money which is more than one can say for more than 20 other players in the league. But still, it was a bad move. It's like going on a roller coaster and not putting down the safety bar. If you survived -- congratulations, you're still dumb.

                                I don't know much about Hayward so I can't comment.
                                your pal,
                                ebrian

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