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Thread: For the people that think DeRozan is overpaid

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    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote Marz wrote: View Post
    I think an angle that hasn't been considered yet (sorry, I stopped reading after all the petty insults :P) is Greg Monroe vs. Derrick Favors. Monroe is not receiving an extension, and will become a restricted free agent. Favors received an extension with several incentives to push it over the $50M mark. It will be interesting to see what kind of contract Monroe gets next year in comparison to Favors.
    At this point, Monroe is a flat-out better player than Favors. However, the difference between the two is that there's no competition for Favors in Utah. Jazz management were 100% sure Favors was their man when they extended him. I can say with certainty that Monroe would be getting the same contract from Detroit if Drummond was not there.
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    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    At this point, Monroe is a flat-out better player than Favors. However, the difference between the two is that there's no competition for Favors in Utah. Jazz management were 100% sure Favors was their man when they extended him. I can say with certainty that Monroe would be getting the same contract from Detroit if Drummond was not there.
    I think flat-out is a bit of an exaggeration. Monroe is a better offensive player, but Favors is better by roughly the same margin on D. Monroe's problem right now is that he's a below average defender at either PF or C. Favors is above average at both those positions, and has a very good chance to be one of the best defensive bigs in the game. I would still give the edge to Monroe, but Favors wouldn't have to do too much for me to consider him more valuable at least, if not "better".

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    At this point, Monroe is a flat-out better player than Favors. However, the difference between the two is that there's no competition for Favors in Utah. Jazz management were 100% sure Favors was their man when they extended him. I can say with certainty that Monroe would be getting the same contract from Detroit if Drummond was not there.
    That is key. I would add Smith as well.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That is key. I would add Smith as well.
    It's not Smith so much as Detroit has one Designated Player slot for their five-year extension and they want to save it for Drummond. Monroe obviously wouldn't have been happy at being told he's second choice between the hot new thing, so Detroit wisely didn't even bother considering Monroe is their best trade bait.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/230320/Hayward-Likely-To-Get-$50M+-Extension-From-Jazz


    That's the going rate for young, talented wing players these days. We saw Tyreke get 11M a year, now we're seeing Hayward get 12+. That 9.5M for DeRozan is starting to actually look like somewhat of a bargain.

    I'm sure people are now going to try and argue that either:

    a.) Hayward is significantly better than DeRozan
    b.) Hayward is also significantly overpaid, and we shouldn't use other bad contracts to justify our own.
    I would question a few things here:

    1) Who leaked this?
    2) Who has to gain by having this 'informed' and anonymous information come out?
    3) What is more important? A player who puts up numbers but the team doesn't win or a player who contributes to what GM's believe to be essential to winning? It should be noted the only year Utah finished under .500 with Hayward was his rookie season with Sloan's departure and Deron Williams' trade.
    4) Are you comparing apples to apples - DeRozan's 4th year to Hayward's 3rd year? Or are you comparing apples to apples - 3rd year to 3rd year?
    5) Doesn't a 23 year old Hayward get the same courtesy of potential that a 23/24 year old DeRozan receives - especially when he has already produced more?
    5) Is it fair to compare a 4th option in Hayward on a veteran team competing for the playoffs directly to DD who has been a 1st or 2nd option since year two depending on injuries? That works both ways: maybe Hayward would lose all his redeeming qualities if he played a role like DD or maybe he would step up to the challenge and show what he can really do as a first or second option (should find out this year).
    6) Isn't Hayward better than DD? He is more efficient by a considerable margin (especially in DD's 3rd year). per36 minutes looking at simple stats, Hayward is on par with a 4th year DD, for example on points he scores .3 less on 1.5 less shot attempts. He is a better defender. His advanced are consistently better than DD. Comparing 3rd year to 3rd year, Hayward is even more impressive.
    7) Doesn't Hayward contribute to winning? It is tough to look at contribution on the floor due to all the factors of teammates, circumstances, etc. but his on/off court is positive 5.3 while DD's is negative 1.4; same type results for net OffRtg/DefRtg, WS, and WS/48.



    After answering all these questions, I come to three conclusions:
    1) This was put out there by Hayward's agent and the $11M per year may not be what is being offered.
    2) Hayward is a better player than DeRozan - there is little question in my opinion, happy to disagree.
    3) The Jazz are better off waiting if they are at $12M per year. Sure someone might offer it - then you can say it is market value and match it. However, that is about $2M off starting a max contract. This is agent games. I like Hayward but by no stretch is he worth $12M just like DD is not worth $9.5 based on what each player has shown. The problem with DD is we don't know what the market was/is for him.


    There is no question DD is the more gifted athlete. However, I think Hayward is the much more skilled and intelligent player.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    It's not Smith so much as Detroit has one Designated Player slot for their five-year extension and they want to save it for Drummond. Monroe obviously wouldn't have been happy at being told he's second choice between the hot new thing, so Detroit wisely didn't even bother considering Monroe is their best trade bait.
    They can still offer an extension starting at nearly $50M though and no other team is going to be able to offer a 5th year either.

    But regardless of the 5th year designated player, teams should be taking the advantage RFA provides. Detroit is in a similar situation to Toronto last year in that by waiting they create more cap space adn hence financial flexibility.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    For the money Hayward and Favors are getting this year, Utah had better win a lot of games, at least 50, or else why not at least let them test RFA?
    I don't believe Hayward is worth $12M. I dont' think Utah is seriously offering that. I think that is an agent leak. But at least Hayward has been giving playing time to show what he can do.

    Favors is interesting though and exactly what I fear DC is doing with JV. You need to give these young guys minutes and opportunity early. Utah really still don't know what they have after 3 years with Favors and now they signed him for nearly $50M. What happens this year if, when given opportunity, he is not what they thought?

    One good thing about DD is that he was given every opportunity to show what he can do.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #28
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't believe Hayward is worth $12M. I dont' think Utah is seriously offering that. I think that is an agent leak. But at least Hayward has been giving playing time to show what he can do.

    Favors is interesting though and exactly what I fear DC is doing with JV. You need to give these young guys minutes and opportunity early. Utah really still don't know what they have after 3 years with Favors and now they signed him for nearly $50M. What happens this year if, when given opportunity, he is not what they thought?

    One good thing about DD is that he was given every opportunity to show what he can do.
    Agreed, $12M seems steep for a player who has produced in a limited role only thus far, but here are a few tid-bits from the Point Forward piece on this...

    Hayward, on the other hand, has been a versatile and deferential contributor — a complement in an offense built around the post-up savvy of Al Jefferson.

    Utah’s offense highlighted Hayward’s cutting and shooting without fully exploring his abilities off the dribble. Coach Tyrone Corbin did well to find more for Hayward to do last season, but the structure of the team never allowed for the 23-year-old forward to be anything more than a supporting part.

    Hayward is unequivocally better equipped for the task. He has the court awareness, handle and passing ability to stretch out his game, potentially to the point of validating a deal of this magnitude.

    Because of the confines of Hayward’s previous role and the fickle nature of basketball talent in general, the Jazz can’t yet know whether this kind of potential investment will be entirely worthwhile. All they can do is make an intimately educated guess based on Hayward’s skills, personality and substantial market appeal, a combination that would seem to put an extension squarely in the team’s best interests.

    Look at the bolded skills that Hayward has. Versatile, cutter, shooter, court awareness, handle, passing....DD doesn't have that many tools in the tool box. IMO, versatility is the most important. Versatility is the new height ~ everyone wants a couple guys on their team who are versatile and teams would rather have a skilled, versatile player who is undersized.

    This last bolded section tells all of the situation. The Jazz are making a gamble based on Hayward's skills, personality, and the fact that Utah isn't a priority destination. Could it work out? Could it hinder them? Both are absolutely possible.

    But like Nilanka said earlier, using other people's mistakes are justification for your own is basically jumping off the bridge with Bobby.

    http://nba.si.com/2013/10/21/utah-ja...?sct=nba_t2_a9

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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't believe Hayward is worth $12M. I dont' think Utah is seriously offering that. I think that is an agent leak. But at least Hayward has been giving playing time to show what he can do.

    Favors is interesting though and exactly what I fear DC is doing with JV. You need to give these young guys minutes and opportunity early. Utah really still don't know what they have after 3 years with Favors and now they signed him for nearly $50M. What happens this year if, when given opportunity, he is not what they thought?

    One good thing about DD is that he was given every opportunity to show what he can do.
    If playing over 23 minutes a game is not enough to figure out what you have, I don't know what is.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I think Favors is worth every penny. I had him pegged as one of the best players of his draft class and was waiting to see when he'd get the opportunity to prove it. It was nice of Utah to give him that much though because they could have argued that he hasn't had enough minutes to prove himself. He's going to be solid.

    DeRozan.. I don't mind how much he is making right now. It's not the worst contract in the world. For me I still think the decision to give him the contract was idiotic, because you painted yourself into a corner for it and you didn't need to. For me I was more against the principles behind making deals like that. DeRozan could conceivably earn 80% of that money which is more than one can say for more than 20 other players in the league. But still, it was a bad move. It's like going on a roller coaster and not putting down the safety bar. If you survived -- congratulations, you're still dumb.

    I don't know much about Hayward so I can't comment.
    your pal,
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Agreed, $12M seems steep for a player who has produced in a limited role only thus far, but here are a few tid-bits from the Point Forward piece on this...

    ...
    Good points. If you are a going to bet on someone, bet on the player who made big improvements every year that he was in the league, and Hayward qualifies. Add that to size, athleticism, IQ, ability to create and shoot, effort on D.. Add the likelihood of him scoring 20+ ppg this season simply because there is no one else on that team. It's easy to see why they'd take a risk and maybe overpay him a little, hoping that it looks like a great deal by summer.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    My sense of irony has me believing that while fans are comparing the newly minted contracts of SGs/Wings to what Derozan received. SGs/Wings are going to their agents telling them - "look what Derozan got, I damn well better get atleast that"

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  17. #33
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Yeah, Colangelo, you've raised the bar for all of us!
    And the cost$$ for GMs, owners and fans (who ultimately pay the salaries, directly or indirectly). Lockouts are largely the result of GMs like Colangelo who can't control their spending and overpay for mid-lower tier talent. Fortunately, I see MU being more of a guy who likes to get value for his dollar & assets. We'll see...

  18. #34
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Nuno SŠ

    Any word on the yearly values of Favors extension? What’s the word on Hayward extension?

    Steve Kyler

    Welcome in everyone… things are moving right along in pre-season. I try not to read too much into these games, simply because teams are experimenting and veteran guys are clearly not playing like they would in real games. Lots of things to get to so lets get after it.

    Yes… gotta follow me on Twitter… @stevekylerNBA — 4 years $49 million. Word is Hayward is close, will be less than Favors, but still a solid multi-year deal. I;d peg in the $8 to $9 mil per year range.


    Read more at http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-rumors...aB2ObvOBohr.99
    Not sure who his words are coming from but........... $12M sounds like an agent leak who would be thrilled to get $10M. 100% speculation on my part.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Raptors Republic Superstar FoxMachine's Avatar
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    ugh... I fucking wish I was a millionaire

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote FoxMachine wrote: View Post
    ugh... I fucking wish I was a millionaire
    Maybe you're just lazy?

    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...-develop/page3

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Take it easy and tone down your reactions to other posters. You started a thread on a topic that has already been beat to death, starting with another talking point for one side of the argument. Just as you are allowed to have an opinion, so are others. I don't want to see any more snark from you against posts that disagree with your post/thread.
    I am taking it easy. If he doesn't like the thread topic he shouldn't enter the thread. Pretty simple.

  22. #38
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I think Favors is worth every penny. I had him pegged as one of the best players of his draft class and was waiting to see when he'd get the opportunity to prove it. It was nice of Utah to give him that much though because they could have argued that he hasn't had enough minutes to prove himself. He's going to be solid.

    DeRozan.. I don't mind how much he is making right now. It's not the worst contract in the world. For me I still think the decision to give him the contract was idiotic, because you painted yourself into a corner for it and you didn't need to. For me I was more against the principles behind making deals like that. DeRozan could conceivably earn 80% of that money which is more than one can say for more than 20 other players in the league. But still, it was a bad move. It's like going on a roller coaster and not putting down the safety bar. If you survived -- congratulations, you're still dumb.

    I don't know much about Hayward so I can't comment.
    Good point, and that's what I think is getting lost in all this as we try and view the DD contract in a vacuum.

    The DD hate has always been a little out of control. $9 million isn't an egregious overpayment for DeRozan no matter how up in arms his detractors get. He's probably overpaid $1-$3 million for the time being but let's not act like this is Gilbert Arenas or Rashard Lewis clogging up a third of the cap and giving you nothing. It's a little harder to stomach because the roster is littered with so many other bad deals, but I disgress...

    The real problem with the DeRozan extension is that the Raptors held all the leverage when it came to negotations and yet BC bid against himself to proactively lock up a player who had exclusively put up good numbers on a bad team.... and this is 4 months after they spent a top 8 pick on a player at the same position.... and 3 months after they threw $20 million away on Fields... and 4 months before they packaged all of their assets to get a largely redundant player (Gay) who makes even more than him.

    Context is everything.

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  24. #39
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Good point, and that's what I think is getting lost in all this as we try and view the DD contract in a vacuum.

    The DD hate has always been a little out of control. $9 million isn't an egregious overpayment for DeRozan no matter how up in arms his detractors get. He's probably overpaid $1-$3 million for the time being but let's not act like this is Gilbert Arenas or Rashard Lewis clogging up a third of the cap and giving you nothing. It's a little harder to stomach because the roster is littered with so many other bad deals, but I disgress...

    The real problem with the DeRozan extension is that the Raptors held all the leverage when it came to negotations and yet BC bid against himself to proactively lock up a player who had exclusively put up good numbers on a bad team.... and this is 4 months after they spent a top 8 pick on a player at the same position.... and 3 months after they threw $20 million away on Fields... and 4 months before they packaged all of their assets to get a largely redundant player (Gay) who makes even more than him.

    Context is everything.
    $9M is nothing assuming he lives up to the contract. If he doesn't, there are a whole bunch of $8-10M contracts out there now and in recent years that are unmovable for anything of value. $9.5M is about 17% of the cap and 60% of a max contract though.

    With that said, he seems to have too much passion for the game and is too young to ever succumb to the CV's, Stuckey's, Biedrins, etc. of the league. I would be absolutely shocked if he was rotting on the bench of a team before this contract was up.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    it's great that derozan can finally take advantage of being guarded by the tim hardaway jr's, beno udrih's, charles douglas roberts etc. (who?) of this world, but until he stops making stupid decisions against the better defenders and adjustments teams make(and good teams will have multiple good defenders) he is overall inefficient. There is definitely an improvement though, I loved that spin move from yesterdays game, his dribble is much tighter now.

    let's avoid this bargnani 13 game primo pasta circle jerk for now shall we?

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