View Poll Results: How bad do you want to see the Raptors tank/rebuild/blow it up/build through draft?

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  • Trade Lowry, Gay, DD at all costs! Getthem off the roster and books, the faster the better!

    3 6.38%
  • Only trade them if you get valuable assets in return.

    44 93.62%
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Thread: A new take on tanking - opponents of this need not click this thread

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  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default A new take on tanking - opponents of this need not click this thread

    Tanking, rebuilding, building through the draft, blowing it up, whatever you want to call it is semantics; the end result is the Raptors lose a lot of games.

    If you are dead set against tanking, get out of here! There is nothing for you to say that has not already been said and another debate of the merits or pitfalls of the building strategy is REALLY not needed.

    I don't think I've seen a thread on this perspective so here goes.


    A lot of people who are against tanking use the argument or protest against it saying assets such as Lowry, DD, or Gay would be traded for expiring contracts - and that is it. The classic example is Stuckey/CV for Gay that was floated over the summer. Personally, I'm all for blowing it up but not if it means trading assets for nothing. Established NBA talent, picks, and cap space in any combination is a minimum. Valuable assets need to be returned. As bad as Gay's contract may be, it is still over in 2014-15. We're not talking Joe Johnson here.


    So my question:

    How bad do you want to see the Raptors tank/rebuild/blow it up/build through draft?
    Trade Lowry, Gay, DD at all costs for anything that rids them off the roster and books, faster the better!
    Only trade them if you get assets of value in return. If not, stay the course.



    *For all the eternal optimists out there, maybe this divides and allows you to conquer the tankers!*
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Tue Oct 22nd, 2013 at 06:50 PM.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  2. #2
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    can I be an optimistic tanker? As in for sure we can get something more than expiring contracts for lowry and dd. I would be fine taking the consequences that come with tanking later in the season because between exum (who I really like now), parker, wiggins, smart, randle etc. this draft is damn stacked and I think we can still get a record that can net us one of these players even if we unload later in the season. Remember not every fan base is the raptors, where they can afford to lose a bunch of games and piss off the faithful, Ujiri your move.
    Last edited by akashsingh; Tue Oct 22nd, 2013 at 07:10 PM.

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    can I be an optimistic tanker? As in for sure we can get something more than expiring contracts for lowry and dd. I would be fine taking the consequences that come with tanking later in the season because between exum (who I really like now), parker, wiggins, smart, randle etc. this draft is damn stacked because I think we can still get a record that can net us one of these players. Ujiri your move.
    Not to mention the guys who come out of nowhere.

    Then you have the really intriguing C's like Joel Embiid, Cauley-Stein, and Austin who teams always reach for and are likely to push any of those previously mentioned players lower.

    The Raptors can start a true rebuild with their starting C in place for the next 7-8 years who is just 21. For all the talk of joining the Sacramento's, Minnesota's, etc. neither of those teams had that on their roster when they decided to start a rebuild. That is a piece you are tanking with hopes to obtain.

    Also, there is the issue of management with those teams. If you think the current management is inept, I can see why you would be weary of taking a few steps back to take many more forward.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Is this a legit choice topic? Seriously, who with a modicum of grey matter is going to say unload those 3 at all costs? This is just to reinforce the "get assets and tank" concept, right? I just don't see it serving any other purpose, sorry.

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Is this a legit choice topic? Seriously, who with a modicum of grey matter is going to say unload those 3 at all costs? This is just to reinforce the "get assets and tank" concept, right? I just don't see it serving any other purpose, sorry.
    no reading comprehension I see.

  6. #6
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Is this a legit choice topic? Seriously, who with a modicum of grey matter is going to say unload those 3 at all costs? This is just to reinforce the "get assets and tank" concept, right? I just don't see it serving any other purpose, sorry.
    p00ka feel free to not contribute. You've made your stance clear. The topic may hold no appeal to you whatsoever. That is cool.

    However, among the people who support tanking, I'm am interested how badly they would want to do it. Therefore I would ask a little bit of courtesy to talk among posters who favour this approach to team building.

    Also there is a benefit of trading everyone away for peanuts: it ensures the Raptors own pick is likely to be dreadful. If you are getting established rookie contract players like Monroe, or intriguing prospects like Giannis 'Po, or solid players who have never had a chance to shine like Tobias Harris, maybe your team does better than one would have thought.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    no reading comprehension I see.
    Who the *&#@ do you think you are? Step aside little one and let someone my own size take me on.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    p00ka feel free to not contribute. You've made your stance clear. The topic may hold no appeal to you whatsoever. That is cool.

    However, among the people who support tanking, I'm am interested how badly they would want to do it. Therefore I would ask a little bit of courtesy to talk among posters who favour this approach to team building.

    Also there is a benefit of trading everyone away for peanuts: it ensures the Raptors own pick is likely to be dreadful. If you are getting established rookie contract players like Monroe, or intriguing prospects like Giannis 'Po, or solid players who have never had a chance to shine like Tobias Harris, maybe your team does better than one would have thought.
    "Courtesy" as in telling people to stay out of your thread? Perhaps you misunderstand the media we're swimming in. If you create your own site, you're free to do whatever you want with people who disagree with you, but this is a public site as far as I know, and I said nothing that justifies banning from your little sandbox.

    As far as " I'm am interested how badly they would want to do it.", wtf ya talking about? Y'all been talking about that all summer, dude. Everybody here has stated their case, including in the very light you now create this umpteenth tank thread as a "new take". What the hell is new about it? That you tell people to stay away from your sandbox? That's about it.

    GO RAPS!!!
    Cheers,,, Enjoy the season

    PS. I didn't come in with an anti-tanking stance, as per your request. I came in questioning the laughable second choice. You know, the one that every tanker here, with an iota of grey matter, has already gone out of their way to disclaim. I can help you locate the 101 threads with all the info you're interested in, if you like.
    Last edited by p00ka; Tue Oct 22nd, 2013 at 11:13 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    p00ka feel free to not contribute. You've made your stance clear. The topic may hold no appeal to you whatsoever. That is cool.

    However, among the people who support tanking, I'm am interested how badly they would want to do it. Therefore I would ask a little bit of courtesy to talk among posters who favour this approach to team building.

    Also there is a benefit of trading everyone away for peanuts: it ensures the Raptors own pick is likely to be dreadful. If you are getting established rookie contract players like Monroe, or intriguing prospects like Giannis 'Po, or solid players who have never had a chance to shine like Tobias Harris, maybe your team does better than one would have thought.
    I actually think this is the route MU is going to take. Target young players like Tobias and Giannis (not going anywhere imo after Bucks traded Harris last year) so you are still acquiring young players who can grow with your team without having to pray on lottery luck.

    I want him to overhaul this roster because it's not that good talent-wise, however I would not be upset if he is getting back players like A. Bennent, T Harris, B McLemore that might make you better sooner than expected.

  9. #9
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    There is not much needed to 'tank' (ie, drop a few pegs to get a higher pick). They just need to trade Lowry for something other than a starting caliber PG.

    If Lowry is traded for picks/scraps/etc they will have to use a platoon of DJ/Buycks and Stone at PG and that is bound to fail badly.

    But for the poll question you always want legitimate assets for your top players or else you will end up like Charlotte/Sacramento or NJ before they became Brooklyn. A crap team that will stay crappy until they do something big (again like Brooklyn).

    I trust MU that he will find the best deals to make the team better. He will not blow it up a la Philly. I'm okay with that. Just don't want to see the same roster/core by the end of the year and I don't think we will.

  10. #10
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    I have always been against gutting the team for the sake of clearing money and piling up losses.

    That doesn't mean I'd necessarily even be against trading all 3 of Rudy, DeMar or Lowry, but that the value would have to have more to it than just cap flexibility (useless if you're a bad team) and draft picks (draft's still mostly a crapshoot and high lottery picks are damn near impossible to acquire). Other pieces could be useful. Young guys on their rookie deals who need a change. Any vets coming back would have to be on smaller or expiring deals, AND be good players to have around....To take trash like Ben Gordon, the Bobcats would have to offer a deal that's basically stupid on their part, where we very clearly win the trade by a huge margin.

    Also that means they can make trades to get better if that's an option. If somehow a top-tier player became gettable with the assets the Raps have, I'd be all for it...as long as it doesn't compromise draft options much (for example if we had to trade a 1st, ideally it would be from the 2016 draft where we've got a couple).

    And I don't care if acquired draft picks are high or not. To me it's more important to get multiple picks, because that's good for flexibility, and if you have good scouting even mid-late 1st rounders can help you build a team.

  11. #11
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    I would expect some assets. However, I don't expect a ton of value. I don't expect to get back a lotto pick for Lowry just because that's what the Raptors paid for him; he's a rental now, and his value is bound to be lesser. For Gay, I expect about what the Raptors paid for him, i.e. a young rotation player like Davis; he's also a potential rental, and his salary is hard to match in trades for most teams, so I don't think his market is high enough where you'd expect much more than that. Even if a team like Atlanta might want him, it's just hard to do under CBA trades rules. For DeMar, I'd be ok with long term salary savings + a young prospect with starter potential or a pick outside the lottery.

    Essentially, I'm ok with losing some value directly in the trade, because indirectly you still gain value because the Raptors' own pick gets better.

    I don't think it's necessary to trade all 3. I think trading Lowry alone would put the Raptors into high-mid lottery just because they wouldn't have a legit point guard. Trading DeMar or Gay would bring fewer losses so you'd probably have to trade both. So trading Lowry seems like the easiest solution to me (as long as you don't bring back a solid point guard in such a trade). Give me an out-of-lottery pick, lets say Ekpe Udoh + lottery protected Bucks' pick, and we have a deal.

  12. #12
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    It's ok for a tank 2.0 thread. I was actually thinking about it from a new way and couldn't be bothered wading into the mess that already is. Even if this team stays together, how good can we get? And can we bet that that includes keeping gay and lowry at reasonable prices? For all intents and purposes, the celtics had pierce, kg, rondo, etc and they said, hmmm, not worth betting on this group...better to tank. Now I realize those are players on the downside of their careers but that's still some talent. The lakers have Kobe and pau and even though they went hard at Dwight, their plan b has been to add mid level retreads. If storied franchises like the celtics and lakers can say that losing is ok this year, why don't we?
    I would say that,unless they show us something remarkable, let everyone go even if we don't get much. Sure, it would be great to get another pick but it's not worth staying the course if we don't. Wouldn't mind keeping demar though. JV and demar and three guys who've never been in my kitchen can still be a pretty bad team.
    It's kind of interesting that this has become such a divisive issue with very little middle ground. Because, at the end of the day, what's the real difference between A) a wholesale self off and B) playing the season out, only to have gay and lowry leave as free agents at the end of the year (a not implausible possibility). Really, only keeping demar and having no decent daft pick. That's why we need an objective viewpoint that none of us have. If only we had a new president and new gm that brought that........
    That's why it's going to be a fascinating season.

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    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post237943

    CalgaryRapsFan, I hope you're going to tell Matt to "tone it down" as well for telling people to get out of the thread if they disagree:

    Quote Matt52 wrote:
    If you are dead set against tanking, get out of here!
    Or does that only apply to me?

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post237943

    CalgaryRapsFan, I hope you're going to tell Matt to "tone it down" as well for telling people to get out of the thread if they disagree:



    Or does that only apply to me?
    Does it apply to you at all? I remember you writing that you are fine with this type of plan as long as assets are good enough.

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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Does it apply to you at all? I remember you writing that you are fine with this type of plan as long as assets are good enough.
    I think you completely missed the point of my post.


    That being said, yes I am a proponent of what Matt typed in the OP to an extent.

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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I think you completely missed the point of my post.


    That being said, yes I am a proponent of what Matt typed in the OP to an extent.
    I guess if this is about something other than what's in this thread, I probably missed it.

  17. #17
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    I'm kind of on the fence about this one for the simple fact that I really don't expect there to be a huge gap in the realistic maximum and minimum returns you can get for trading Lowry, Gay and DD.

    First off, with Rudy Gay you're looking at a very narrow list of trading partners due to the dollar amount of the contract. Ideally if you're rebuilding/tanking/stockpiling assets/whatever-you-want-to-call-it then you'd get back a first round pick or a talented young player (maybe more than one if you're lucky) and a bunch of salary ballast. The question is how much talent is a team willing to give up in order to acquire Gay. Given Gay's massive salary and potential for either walking or re-upping at an enormous cost, it's much more likely that the realistic haul is going to be expiring contracts and middling talent. There simply aren't enough huge millstone contracts out there to trade for and teams are going to be valuing their first round picks too highly to expect much of a return for him. In other words, I can't see this being a Baron Davis for a first round pick type of deal. So the difference between trading him for contracts and assets vs just expirings may come down to a late first round pick and a flawed-but-talented type player. In other words, not a huge gap.

    As for Lowry, the way to maximize his value would be to trade him near the deadline to a playoff team that's lost it's starting PG for an extended period of time. The catch is that those types of teams don't tend to have a lot of high draft picks or exciting young assets to throw back. You might get yourself another future starter back, but the odds of getting a future star for a rental player are slim. So much like for Gay, the difference between dumping him and maximizing his value probably isn't all that great.

    DeRozan represents the best chance at getting something solid of value in return because of his contract situation, but he's still a very flawed player whose value isn't great enough to get you back a lottery pick or a potential future star unless that star just happens to be buried behind another star and DD fits a position of need for the trading partner.

    Add that up and really is there going to be much of a difference between Ujiri waiting to maximize each player's potential value and just dumping them for the first good deal that comes along and allows them to bottom out this year? Will the assets he gets by waiting compensate for a drop from pick #7 to pick #11 for example, and missing out on a future all-star (and yes I realize that lottery is random, etc etc, this is all just speculation)?

    All that being said, I think waiting is probably the way to go, because those extra assets allow you to deal down the road and because although teams may not be willing to give up picks this year, future picks may prove just as valuable (especially if a couple of players choose to stay in college for another year and make 2015 a strong class as a result). A lot of young guys just need playing time and the right environment to succeed, so you never know which random throw-in could end up being a useful player/trade component if given a legit shot at developing.

  18. #18
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...l=1#post237943

    CalgaryRapsFan, I hope you're going to tell Matt to "tone it down" as well for telling people to get out of the thread if they disagree:



    Or does that only apply to me?
    Wow, you really do have an axe to grind today, don't you?

    First of all, his comment was clearly made tongue-in-cheek.

    Second of all, he acknowledged the numerous legitimate arguments that have been made in multiple threads by the anti-tank posters. That is the epitome of respecting their opinions.

    Third, he used the OP to be clear that he wasn't discounting the arguments against tanking, but preferred this thread to be an opportunity for pro-tankers to explain their rationale for and degree of support for the vague term 'tanking'.

    Fourth, he wasn't using a new argument to support one side over another. He didn't present new evidence to push a pro-tanking agenda, but was instead trying to avoid yet another thread becoming a debate between the pro and anti tankers.

    Fifth, it's not your job or your place to question the approach taken by admins/mods while trying to keep threads on-topic and respectful. Different tactics are required in different circumstances, which have nothing to do with who creates the thread or posts in it. If you have an issues with the way the admins/mods are acting, please feel free to send a PM to any/all of the admins/mods to voice your displeasure and register your complaint; there's no reason for a public display like this.


    ***

    I apologize for taking this thread off-topic. We now return to your regularly scheduled program.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Oct 23rd, 2013 at 12:36 AM.

  19. #19
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    Wow, so I'm the only one here that would prefer the dump them all option huh? I'm a little surprised.

    You guys really feel that if the team is around the 10th or 11th seed at the deadline but Ujiri can't find any deals that bring back solid assets he should still stay the course? Really? Then what, go into next season with the same core and do the same dance all over again, hoping this time to squeak into the playoffs? What's the end-game there?

    I just don't get the logic I guess.

  20. #20
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Wow, so I'm the only one here that would prefer the dump them all option huh? I'm a little surprised.

    You guys really feel that if the team is around the 10th or 11th seed at the deadline but Ujiri can't find any deals that bring back solid assets he should still stay the course? Really? Then what, go into next season with the same core and do the same dance all over again, hoping this time to squeak into the playoffs? What's the end-game there?

    I just don't get the logic I guess.
    I would think the Raptors would have the option to let Lowry walk in free agency.

    Gay might opt in (a poor year is hardly likely to help his free agent value) and at that point the Raptors would likely have a little more leverage trading him because the receiving team would know he is there for at least one full season.... although $19.3M - eek.

    DD would still have 3 more years on his contract and should be movable (assuming he doesn't have a piss poor year).

    Casey would undoubtedly not be retained.

    Essentially draft night and the summer might see MU walking around with some TNT.

    ...... or not, I'm really just thinking out loud here.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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