View Poll Results: How bad do you want to see the Raptors tank/rebuild/blow it up/build through draft?

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  • Trade Lowry, Gay, DD at all costs! Getthem off the roster and books, the faster the better!

    3 6.38%
  • Only trade them if you get valuable assets in return.

    44 93.62%
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Thread: A new take on tanking - opponents of this need not click this thread

  1. #141
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    let it go, xixak. let it go.
    @jerboat

  2. #142
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    You are such a disrespectful person. Why the mods allow you to continue is beyond my comprehension.
    There seems to be a gang/mob mentality on this forum. And the fact that one of the mods (CalgaryRapsFan) is actually one of the spearheads of it irks me.

    I still find it hilarious that he called me out in another thread for saying that if people don't think the thread is useful, they shouldn't post in it. But then commended Matt for saying "opponents of this need not click this thread". I guess it's cool when he agrees with the poster, but an issue when he doesn't.

  3. #143
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    I do find it funny that I was able to change Matt's stance on this topic. At the start of the summer he was consistently emphasizing how Gay, DD, Lowry etc needed to go at all costs. But now he only wants to move them if we get good value in return.

    Interesting.

    Ditto for Axel and CalgaryRapsFan. I'm sure they'll all vehemently deny it now
    Good luck finding a single quote from me that ever supported an outright tank. The only time I've ever supported such an approach was 2 years ago, when Valanciunas was spending the season in Europe. Once he came over, the tanking window closed for me. A significant retooling is what I've supported since then, consistently.

    In fact, I've had several arguments against outright tanking, because of the incredible uncertainty about finishing last in the standings, winning the draft lottery and actually making the best/right pick even if you do wind up picking 1st overall in the draft.

    If you want to start an argument, at least start one based in reality. Cheers.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Oct 25th, 2013 at 10:41 AM.

  4. #144
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Good luck finding a single quote from me that ever supported an outright tank. The only time I've ever supported such an approach was 2 years ago, when Valanciunas was spending the season in Europe. Once he came over, the tanking window closed for me. A significant retooling is what I've supported since then, consistently.

    In fact, I've had several arguments against outright tanking, because of the incredible uncertainty about finishing last (ie: 1st for draft lottery), winning the draft lottery and actually making the best/right pick even if you do wind up picking 1st overall in the draft.

    If you want to start an argument, at least start one based in reality. Cheers.
    I sent you a PM.

  5. #145
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    While I actually agree with the premise of this thread. Your bias is beginning to become somewhat annoying.
    What bias?

    If you read the entire exchange between special1 and myself, including his response to the message you quoted, you'd realize that we actually came to a better mutual understanding of the topic. I enjoyed our exchange and appreciated him taking the time to share his thoughts with me. Funny what a respectful conversation can accomplish.

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  7. #146
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    What bias?

    If you read the entire exchange between special1 and myself, including his response to the message you quoted, you'd realize that we actually came to a better mutual understanding of the topic. I enjoyed our exchange and appreciated him taking the time to share his thoughts with me. Funny what a respectful conversation can accomplish.
    Again, I sent you a PM.

  8. #147
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Tanking, rebuilding, building through the draft, blowing it up, whatever you want to call it is semantics; the end result is the Raptors lose a lot of games.

    If you are dead set against tanking, get out of here! There is nothing for you to say that has not already been said and another debate of the merits or pitfalls of the building strategy is REALLY not needed.

    I don't think I've seen a thread on this perspective so here goes.


    A lot of people who are against tanking use the argument or protest against it saying assets such as Lowry, DD, or Gay would be traded for expiring contracts - and that is it. The classic example is Stuckey/CV for Gay that was floated over the summer. Personally, I'm all for blowing it up but not if it means trading assets for nothing. Established NBA talent, picks, and cap space in any combination is a minimum. Valuable assets need to be returned. As bad as Gay's contract may be, it is still over in 2014-15. We're not talking Joe Johnson here.


    So my question:

    How bad do you want to see the Raptors tank/rebuild/blow it up/build through draft?
    Trade Lowry, Gay, DD at all costs for anything that rids them off the roster and books, faster the better!
    Only trade them if you get assets of value in return. If not, stay the course.


    *For all the eternal optimists out there, maybe this divides and allows you to conquer the tankers!*
    Successfully executing a tanking strategy (or trades, or free agent acquisition for that matter) assumes that you can correctly evaluate talent (see: Jordan, Michael) and correctly assess, develop and project asset value. I'd much rather see a thread and some analysis on how/why some franchises/GMs are great at drafting or trading for under-valued talent, while some franchises can be in the lottery for a decade and still be in a losing situation. That would be a worthwhile discussion, IMO.

  9. #148
    Raptors Republic Starter Edgar's Avatar
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    Default Masai's Multiple Motives?

    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    Again, I sent you a PM.
    The nature of PM's are that this statement isn't necessary. As far as mob mentality - it appears you tend to disrespect many people on this forum whether that is your intention or not.


    As to the topic - a team is best torn down by keeping/finding as many future pieces as possible and trying to turn them into productive pieces that fit. Many of the more successful tank jobs were done by getting and wisely drafting their core players in the same or back to back drafts (Portland/OKC/Minni/etc). The other tankers were largely teams already with a franchise player who was injured long-term (Heat, Spurs, etc)

    Three pieces that are currently productive but may not be a part of our long term strategy:

    Kyle Lowry - lack of depth behind him and his play-making, clutch skills, and expiring contract

    Rudy Gay - Clutch skills, taking pressure off Demar and JV, and possible expiring contract

    Landry Fields - Ablity to execute, good defense, play-making, low potential, taking minutes from Ross


    I have a suspicion that Masai has multiple motives in assembling this team with an opt-out to tank in the first few months -

    1) Working toward a winning culture by awarding the hard work/players to prove themselves/control their destiny

    2) Diverting media/team attention from accusing them tankers - "Hey we tried to make the playoffs so this is plan B"

    3) Increasing/Inflating the value of the above 3 mentioned players who are all coming off some of the worst seasons of their careers (eg. Fields w/ average 3pt% has value vs Fields now)
    When Tom Chambers dunks an NBA player gets their hops...

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  11. #149
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Successfully executing a tanking strategy (or trades, or free agent acquisition for that matter) assumes that you can correctly evaluate talent (see: Jordan, Michael) and correctly assess, develop and project asset value. I'd much rather see a thread and some analysis on how/why some franchises/GMs are great at drafting or trading for under-valued talent, while some franchises can be in the lottery for a decade and still be in a losing situation. That would be a worthwhile discussion, IMO.
    +1

  12. #150
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Successfully executing a tanking strategy (or trades, or free agent acquisition for that matter) assumes that you can correctly evaluate talent (see: Jordan, Michael) and correctly assess, develop and project asset value. I'd much rather see a thread and some analysis on how/why some franchises/GMs are great at drafting or trading for under-valued talent, while some franchises can be in the lottery for a decade and still be in a losing situation. That would be a worthwhile discussion, IMO.
    I agree.... Start that thread any time.

    I suspect talent evaluation comes down to you either have it or you don't. Kind of like height or any other talent such as sining.

  13. #151
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    p00ka feel free to not contribute. You've made your stance clear. The topic may hold no appeal to you whatsoever. That is cool.

    However, among the people who support tanking, I'm am interested how badly they would want to do it. Therefore I would ask a little bit of courtesy to talk among posters who favour this approach to team building.

    Also there is a benefit of trading everyone away for peanuts: it ensures the Raptors own pick is likely to be dreadful. If you are getting established rookie contract players like Monroe, or intriguing prospects like Giannis 'Po, or solid players who have never had a chance to shine like Tobias Harris, maybe your team does better than one would have thought.
    I actually think this is the route MU is going to take. Target young players like Tobias and Giannis (not going anywhere imo after Bucks traded Harris last year) so you are still acquiring young players who can grow with your team without having to pray on lottery luck.

    I want him to overhaul this roster because it's not that good talent-wise, however I would not be upset if he is getting back players like A. Bennent, T Harris, B McLemore that might make you better sooner than expected.

  14. #152
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I agree.... Start that thread any time.

    I suspect talent evaluation comes down to you either have it or you don't. Kind of like height or any other talent such as sining.
    Ok, so let me sidejack this thread a bit.... A good example from baseball is a guy like Pat Gillick, being one of those guys with a true gift for talent evaluation. Contrast that to the whole Moneyball approach, which can also be successful. Basketball equivalents of each would be, say, Jerry Krause (old school) vs. Daryl Morey (new school).

    Another example is the Spurs. Yes, they lucked out by getting Tim Duncan more than a decade ago, but that doesn't that doesn't explain a recent moves like being able to develop George Hill into a valuable enough asset that could be traded for a mid-1st round pick and then using that pick wisely to select Kawhi Leonard. Is that all luck and Tim Duncan? Same type of asset development seems to be happening with Cory Joseph, who looked like an absolute scrub in his rookie season. They seem to do it again and again. Draft, acquire or sell talent which exceeds the perceived value of the asset when they picked it up. Not 100%, but seemingly a better track record than most. Why?

  15. #153
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Ok, so let me sidejack this thread a bit.... A good example from baseball is a guy like Pat Gillick, being one of those guys with a true gift for talent evaluation. Contrast that to the whole Moneyball approach, which can also be successful. Basketball equivalents of each would be, say, Jerry Krause (old school) vs. Daryl Morey (new school).

    Another example is the Spurs. Yes, they lucked out by getting Tim Duncan more than a decade ago, but that doesn't that doesn't explain a recent moves like being able to develop George Hill into a valuable enough asset that could be traded for a mid-1st round pick and then using that pick wisely to select Kawhi Leonard. Is that all luck and Tim Duncan? Same type of asset development seems to be happening with Cory Joseph, who looked like an absolute scrub in his rookie season. They seem to do it again and again. Draft, acquire or sell talent which exceeds the perceived value of the asset when they picked it up. Not 100%, but seemingly a better track record than most. Why?
    Excellent coaching and leadership is a big part of their development, but it all comes together with their scouting. They target guys that work for them or that they feel they can develop and not just draft popular picks/names. Duncan was lucky in that he stepped onto a team with David Robinson, Avery Johnson, Sean Elliott, etc to lead by example, and now Duncan does the same. The Spurs are the perfect example of brilliance on the bench and in the front office which leads to on the court.

  16. #154
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Excellent coaching and leadership is a big part of their development, but it all comes together with their scouting. They target guys that work for them or that they feel they can develop and not just draft popular picks/names. Duncan was lucky in that he stepped onto a team with David Robinson, Avery Johnson, Sean Elliott, etc to lead by example, and now Duncan does the same. The Spurs are the perfect example of brilliance on the bench and in the front office which leads to on the court.
    By the way the following is not directed at you, just a little background rambling before I make my point.


    The Spurs have this urban legend about how they never make a bad draft pick. Hardly. They've drafted a few, "Who?". They've traded guys who never got a shot (Scola, Barbosa, and Dragic come immediately to mind). However when you look at the overall body or work over the last 15 years or so and compare it to the rest of the league, they are pretty ridiculously incredible at finding value at the back end of the first round and second round of the draft. In contrast, take a look at Toronto. They've hit a few home runs early in the draft but more often than not struck out - especially in the 2nd round.

    So to my point about your post, the bold. It most certainly all comes together with scouting. Another name for scouting would be talent identification. The problem in Toronto is that they have been building around guys who have talent levels that are inferior to what is needed to build a winner. Role players are treated as corner stones. Deep bench guys are your role players. Your deep bench guys are D-League equivalents.

    Toronto currently have two guys running the basketball show (Ujiri and Weltman) who have worked their way up through the league front offices with a start in scouting. In private business and sports, you don't typically go from a nobody to a significant decision maker without serious success behind you. For these men starting in scouting it would be talent recognition. Both men have shown great success in identifying and drafting talent in the middle of the first round and later in to the 2nd round.

    This is why I want Toronto to trade their main pieces right now for prospects and picks. I have the utmost faith in the front office's ability to identify talent. Combine that with a cap guru who worked for the league office on creating the CBA and you have a serious recipe for success.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  17. #155
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    By the way the following is not directed at you, just a little background rambling before I make my point.


    The Spurs have this urban legend about how they never make a bad draft pick. Hardly. They've drafted a few, "Who?". They've traded guys who never got a shot (Scola, Barbosa, and Dragic come immediately to mind). However when you look at the overall body or work over the last 15 years or so and compare it to the rest of the league, they are pretty ridiculously incredible at finding value at the back end of the first round and second round of the draft. In contrast, take a look at Toronto. They've hit a few home runs early in the draft but more often than not struck out - especially in the 2nd round.

    So to my point about your post, the bold. It most certainly all comes together with scouting. Another name for scouting would be talent identification. The problem in Toronto is that they have been building around guys who have talent levels that are inferior to what is needed to build a winner. Role players are treated as corner stones. Deep bench guys are your role players. Your deep bench guys are D-League equivalents.

    Toronto currently have two guys running the basketball show (Ujiri and Weltman) who have worked their way up through the league front offices with a start in scouting. In private business and sports, you don't typically go from a nobody to a significant decision maker without serious success behind you. For these men starting in scouting it would be talent recognition. Both men have shown great success in identifying and drafting talent in the middle of the first round and later in to the 2nd round.

    This is why I want Toronto to trade their main pieces right now for prospects and picks. I have the utmost faith in the front office's ability to identify talent. Combine that with a cap guru who worked for the league office on creating the CBA and you have a serious recipe for success.
    I think their scouting prowess goes beyond just the draft though. They constantly are able to acquire low radar free agents and trades and find guys that fit their system and that they can make the most out of. Danny Green is the most recent example, but the last decade plus is full of guys like that

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  19. #156
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I think their scouting prowess goes beyond just the draft though. They constantly are able to acquire low radar free agents and trades and find guys that fit their system and that they can make the most out of. Danny Green is the most recent example, but the last decade plus is full of guys like that
    You're absolutely right.

    The draft is a big part of scouting/identifying talent but scouring the foreign leagues, minor league, and the buried on the end of other team's benches all play significant roles in finding talent too.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  20. #157
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    The Washington Wizards, trying to strengthen their hand for a playoff push in the Eastern Conference, have acquired center Marcin Gortat from the Phoenix Suns, sources close to the talks told ESPN.

    The Wizards will get a scoring presence in the paint in Marcin Gortat to go with their prized young backcourt of John Wall and Bradley Beal.

    Sources said the deal sends Gortat and guards Shannon Brown, Malcolm Lee and Kendall Marshall to the Wizards for the expiring contract of veteran big man Emeka Okafor and a protected 2014 first-round pick (to No. 12).

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/98...ka-okafor-pick
    I think we just got an idea of what a 2014 protected pick from a playoff bubble team is worth.

    Tankers should be smiling tonight.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  21. #158
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You're absolutely right.

    The draft is a big part of scouting/identifying talent but scouring the foreign leagues, minor league, and the buried on the end of other team's benches all play significant roles in finding talent too.
    Sure-fire talent isn't a lock either. Developing and maintaining is a key component. And that's where I think that culture and coaching come into play. Indiana is a great example. Who would ever think that a starting 5 of Hibbert, West, George, Stephenson and Hill could give Lebron & Co. all they could handle? All without their supposed best player & leader, Danny Granger. I still look at that roster and think that they could easily be a perennial playoff bubble/first round exit team or worse - and nobody would be surprised. There's no Tim Duncan there, so can't use the 'just get great talent and it will work out' theory. Frank Vogel has to get a ton of credit for developing the players and the culture. Hibbert doesn't even look like the same player when he entered the league. Paul George came out of nowhere. David West is definitely underrated, but always considered a notch below the perennial all-stars. There's definitely something else going on with the Pacers, besides talent identification.

    I think there a handful of guys that will be great on any team, in any era (Lebron, Jordan, Duncan, Shaq, etc...). Then there are guys that can go either way, either (a) be uplifted by the situation they are put in, or (b) be brought down by the organization, culture or lack of development. Problem is, it's really difficult to know if a guy is sucking simply because he doesn't have the talent or because he's not being developed properly, although Bargs comes to mind as a very talented prospect who was likely handled improperly (so says Smitch, anyways).
    Last edited by golden; Fri Oct 25th, 2013 at 09:41 PM.

  22. #159
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    Quote Xixak wrote: View Post
    And you are?
    An occasional poster, who happened to be reading this thread, and felt like pointing out some bulls***

  23. #160
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    You're absolutely right.

    The draft is a big part of scouting/identifying talent but scouring the foreign leagues, minor league, and the buried on the end of other team's benches all play significant roles in finding talent too.
    The other thing that they (the Spurs) have mentioned is that they scout players with specific roles for them in mind, and then, once they have them, make a point of developing the skills that role requires while also making it explicitly clear to the player what is expected of them. Sounds simple, but it probably happens less than you'd think.

    Or maybe it can't happen at all until you have some cornerstones in place, at which point it's easy to see what skills need to be filled in around them.
    Last edited by JimiCliff; Fri Oct 25th, 2013 at 10:47 PM.

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