View Poll Results: How bad do you want to see the Raptors tank/rebuild/blow it up/build through draft?

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  • Trade Lowry, Gay, DD at all costs! Getthem off the roster and books, the faster the better!

    3 6.38%
  • Only trade them if you get valuable assets in return.

    44 93.62%
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Thread: A new take on tanking - opponents of this need not click this thread

  1. #241
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I liked the post below mine because there were parts of it that I really agreed with... Mainly the part about how one transcendent talent can completely alter a team's outlook (none of this "culture change" BS as the team continues to sputter), and the part about Jonas becoming a focal point of the offense once the roster has been dismantled in the short term.

    I had no idea that the posts we "like" were under such scrutiny.
    Sorry if that tweaked some paranoia or something. No need to get hissy. I don't usually even pay attention to "likes", much less comment on them (perhaps a first?), but the stark contrast between what you had just written, and the very next post, which you supported, caught my eye. Boo hoo.

  2. #242
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I was referring to the article and a common analysis put forth by experts/insiders about the Raptors' starting lineup.

    Besides, I could care less about what that lineup-related stat shows. It's not like it helped the team become a playoff team, or even a good team. You tell me not to live in the past, but then point to a stat from last season (that lineup was together less than half a season) as justification for why any concerns about the construction of the Raptors starting lineup not being ideal. A little bit hypocritical, no?

    I also never suggested the Raptors make any roster moves, especially not immediately.

    I was just pointing out that 'fit', along with talent and culture/chemistry, is an important ingredient for any successful team. That's applicable to any team, not just NBA teams and certainly not just the Raptors.

    No need to be so defensive. I don't think my post deserved such a snarky "Sigh..." response, especially since you clearly read way more into my post than I actually said, and missed my main point entirely.
    I'm at work so i'll make this quick--

    I don't think I missed your point at all. I think you were being pessimistic about our roster as per usual. You said "One of the big knocks about the Raptors' current roster is that even if the team does build a good culture, even if they develop good chemistry and even if all the talent/potential is maximized, the problem is that the pieces don't fit to get all that well"......

    I reminded you that not only did it seem like the current core (Lowry, DD, Rudy, Amir, JV) seem to "fit" pretty good, they were 3rd in the entire NBA. I think thats pretty relevant to the discussion and counters your point about fit with this core don't you?

    My comment about the pessimistic attitude that exists around RR forums is just honesty and it wasn't directed towards you alone. I personally notice this pessimistic attitude from MANY of the pro-tankers. How can you be so pessimistic and be a tanker at the same time?? - is beyond me! At what point do you have optimism? Especially, when you're possibly dealing with the lottery!

    Anywho. I apologize for the sigh.....However, i'm pretty sure I got your point.
    Last edited by special1; Wed Oct 30th, 2013 at 04:40 PM.

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  4. #243
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Dave Berri wrote a piece at Freakonomics yesterday about tanking.

    Summary quotes:





    Let's assume Houston and Miami are the top teams this year, which is fairly uncontroversial at this point. Houston acquired D12, Harden, Asik, et al. through trades or free agency. They did draft Parsons and certain other players, but not with a lottery pick (Parsons was a second rounder). Miami has some or their own picks, most notably Wade. But they obviously built this team with cap space and free agency.
    Very good find and a good post! This post (to me) only re-iterates what many Anti-Tankers have been saying for a while now. In order to eventually compete for a Championship, you have to be willing to be MEDIOCRE at some point. We've had like 4 lottery picks in the last 5 years! It's time for us to take the next step and get out of the lottery! GO RAPS GO!

  5. #244
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I'm at work so i'll make this quick--

    I don't think I missed your point at all. I think you were being pessimistic about our roster as per usual. You said "One of the big knocks about the Raptors' current roster is that even if the team does build a good culture, even if they develop good chemistry and even if all the talent/potential is maximized, the problem is that the pieces don't fit to get all that well"......

    I reminded you that not only did it seem like the current core (Lowry, DD, Rudy, Amir, JV) seem to "fit" pretty good, they were 3rd in the entire NBA. I think thats pretty relevant to the discussion and counters your point about fit with this core don't you?

    My comment about the pessimistic attitude that exists around RR forums is just honesty and it wasn't directed towards you alone. I personally notice this pessimistic attitude from MANY of the pro-tankers. How can you be so pessimistic and be a tanker at the same time?? - is beyond me! At what point do you have optimism? Especially, when you're possibly dealing with the lottery!

    Anywho. I apologize for the sigh.....However, i'm pretty sure I got your point.
    You're still missing the point, even though you quoted part of it again (the underlined part).

    2 key points I was making:
    - 'fit' is important, along with talent level and team culture/chemistry
    - many NBA experts/insiders point out a perceived lack of fit on Toronto's current roster (ie: $27.4M salary this season on 2 starting wings that have a similar game - scoring without consistent 3pt shooting, and no lock-down defense)

    I wasn't even necessarily voicing my own opinion about the Raptors' roster, but rather just pointing out what many experts have been saying about it all offseason. That's neither pessimistic or optimistic (I wasn't getting into a debate about whether they were right or not, hence my use of the term "perceived").

    I was offering an opinion on key ingredients for building a successful team, in general. You've yet to comment about that, despite replying to my quote twice so far. All you've done is got defensive about the 'fit' of the current Raptors roster, which wasn't really what I was talking about at all.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Oct 30th, 2013 at 05:24 PM.

  6. #245
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    Whatever the media "experts" say, who most often barely ever see a Raptors game, there's more substance in what really happened last year and preseason this year. There's no 1 formula to creating a high quality NBA team. Non of the contenders are built the same way as the others, as it has always been. It's up to the coaching staff to devise offensive and defensive schemes that FIT the talent on the team, not try and fantasize about re-creating someone else's model, which is impossible without the exact same players.

    In any case, the whole tanking topic has been beaten to death for months, and until the games are played, there really isn't anything new to be said/discussed. How about we give it a rest for at least a few games.

    GO RAPTORS!!

  7. #246
    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post

    Also, a Phoenix player has come out in favour of tanking, it seems to me, using some very bad arguments.
    Easy for Dudley to say, he now plays for the Clippers.
    Whatever you do, do it the best you can

  8. #247
    Raptors Republic Starter Fully's Avatar
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    Sorry if that tweaked some paranoia or something. No need to get hissy. I don't usually even pay attention to "likes", much less comment on them (perhaps a first?), but the stark contrast between what you had just written, and the very next post, which you supported, caught my eye. Boo hoo.
    No hissy here, trust me. Just wanted to clear up my stance as you were obviously confused. If you want to know my stance, just read what I wrote. It's not that hard.

    Just because someone has a different opinion than me doesn't mean I can't recognize that they've made a good point or an enlightening remark, hence me liking a few posts along the way that may not line up directly with my line of thinking.

  9. #248
    Raptors Republic All-Star brothersteve's Avatar
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    Rebuilding through the draft at this point pretty much means making the Raptors into the Timberwolves ver2.

    It's been 5 years in the lottery, this year would make 6. Give the additions 3 years to mature into players that might be able to win (like in Cleveland with Kyrie) and the Raptors can match the T-wolves 9 yr lotto streak.

    The only good thing that would come out of tanking would be a big increase in media seating because 1) no fans will be in the building to watch the team lose 50+ games a season over the next 3+ years and 2) there won't be much media covering the games either.

    The good news about tanking and becoming the T-wolves ver2 is after that long losing - when you do land that star (like Kevin Love), he can't wait to get out of town to join an organization that's willing to spend to win instead.

    Of course if this team as constructed can't win, the Raptors options are pretty limited
    The best Raptors discussion board is at Raptors Republic.

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  11. #249
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote brothersteve wrote: View Post
    Rebuilding through the draft at this point pretty much means making the Raptors into the Timberwolves ver2.

    It's been 5 years in the lottery, this year would make 6. Give the additions 3 years to mature into players that might be able to win (like in Cleveland with Kyrie) and the Raptors can match the T-wolves 9 yr lotto streak.

    The only good thing that would come out of tanking would be a big increase in media seating because 1) no fans will be in the building to watch the team lose 50+ games a season over the next 3+ years and 2) there won't be much media covering the games either.

    The good news about tanking and becoming the T-wolves ver2 is after that long losing - when you do land that star (like Kevin Love), he can't wait to get out of town to join an organization that's willing to spend to win instead.

    Of course if this team as constructed can't win, the Raptors options are pretty limited
    New leadership and new direction.

    If you take a wrong turn and go down the wrong path do you turn around and get back on track? Or do you keep going hoping you eventually get to where you want to go?

    The reality is if last night is what we can expect from this year, the Raptors are going in the lottery whether they like it or not.

    Bold 1: Raptors are willing to spend to win but they don't have the talent to win.

    Bold 2: My money is on this.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  13. #250
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    New leadership and new direction.

    If you take a wrong turn and go down the wrong path do you turn around and get back on track? Or do you keep going hoping you eventually get to where you want to go?

    The reality is if last night is what we can expect from this year, the Raptors are going in the lottery whether they like it or not.

    Bold 1: Raptors are willing to spend to win but they don't have the talent to win.

    Bold 2: My money is on this.
    I agree with your overall point. The only caveat is that I don't think last night was an accurate indication of how this team will play this season. Last night was probably one of the ugliest games in recent memory, which includes most of the 19 losses to start last season.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  14. #251
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I agree with your overall point. The only caveat is that I don't think last night was an accurate indication of how this team will play this season. Last night was probably one of the ugliest games in recent memory, which includes most of the 19 losses to start last season.
    I agree with the bold. I dont expect last night's game to be the norm. Also, Last year we would've taken as much "ugly" wins as possible, out of the first 23 games.

    For those that put too much stock into ONE game.....keep in mind that The Miami Heat lost last night to Philadelphia. The Clippers lost to the Lakers the night before. I'm sure there are more examples across the league. At least we came out with the Win (Yay for anti-tankers .....pro-tankers may be disappointed).

  15. #252
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I agree with the bold. I dont expect last night's game to be the norm. Also, Last year we would've taken as much "ugly" wins as possible, out of the first 23 games.

    For those that put too much stock into ONE game.....keep in mind that The Miami Heat lost last night to Philadelphia. The Clippers lost to the Lakers the night before. I'm sure there are more examples across the league. At least we came out with the Win (Yay for anti-tankers .....pro-tankers may be disappointed).
    A lot of that depends on your perspective. There were plenty here last year who were calling for doom and gloom. There was plenty of optimism too (believe it or not I was one of the most optimistic Raptor fans for years - especially since I joined the forums).

    However, last year there were a whole other set of circumstances and expectations.
    1) No lotto pick unless top 3. Wins mattered because there was no light at the end of a craptacular season.
    2) Expectations were 13 game Bargnani would reemerge.
    3) Same song and dance about DeRozan this season was the theme last season... and the season before.
    4) The job Casey did in year one with no real talent to speak of (and no interference from the front office) in 2011-12 allowed a tough gritty team that held opponents to a top 10 opp fg%. The expectation was to build on that when the reality is the Raptors took quite few steps back.
    5) Fields, while everyone agreed was overpaid, was still thought of as a productive player. No one knew he was injured and many were expecting a return to pre-Melo form in NY.
    6) As bad as the Raptors bench turned out to be last season, it was waaaay worse the year before.
    7) Mid season Gay was brought in and before finishing the year at 17-16 with a starting Gay, they were 10-15 before #AprilFoolsGold. Everyone points to that 17-16 but all I remember is the losing streak that followed the winning streak to get them close to playoff contention. They got close and literally shit the bed. They started winning games when the season was over. For all that clamour to the idea of, "We were just 4 games out of the playoffs!" Yes, true. But context is important. An 8-1 finish to the season was also with a 2-7 finish for the Bucks (who also lost 16 of last 24).


    So for me comparing last year to this year is a not really relevant because there are different circumstances and expectations (obviously this is very much based on one's perspective and opinion!!!).
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  16. #253
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Last year was brutal for a lot of reasons.. that has tainted my expectations for this season and as such am watching the team much differently.

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