A new take on tanking - opponents of this need not click this thread

[wallz]

Kind of off topic but "changing the culture" has to be the most overused cliche in all of sports right now.

Every single coach (and lately, even executives) who has been hired over the past decade has told us that they are instituting a culture change, only about 5% of them ever live up to it, and yet the media and fans can not wait to eat it up from the next guy who drops the same stuff.

Casey's a great example but there's dozens more. He had a "culture building" season in year one, saw it completely regress in year two, and now he's firing up the culture change machine again for a second time around this year!

Yeah that's getting kinda tiring. When Masai says the word "culture" I want to throw up, because of how many times i've heard it

[Mediumcore]

Kind of off topic but "changing the culture" has to be the most overused cliche in all of sports right now.

Every single coach (and lately, even executives) who has been hired over the past decade has told us that they are instituting a culture change, only about 5% of them ever live up to it, and yet the media and fans can not wait to eat it up from the next guy who drops the same stuff.

Casey's a great example but there's dozens more. He had a "culture building" season in year one, saw it completely regress in year two, and now he's firing up the culture change machine again for a second time around this year!

Yeah, like what was the culture before MU came on board? Rampant drugs and crime in the locker room? No, it's about winning and losing. If you want to change the culture from losing to winning you need talent. Everything else is just excuses or stalling.

[Fully]

To answer the original question, I'd be somewhere between the two options.

Giving away your players to explicitly gun for the worst record in the league should not be an option, and I don't think Ujiri would ever consider it. The chances of your rebuild being successful are directly related to the amount of value you're able to get back during the dismantling process... so not getting the best deal(s) possible is shooting yourself in the foot.

But I don't think you can wait for a godfather type offer to come down the pipeline either because frankly, I don't think it's coming. Rudy was had for a relatively low cost six months ago and it's not like his value has been driven way up since then. It's around the same if not slightly lower.

Ujiri has a little bit of time at the start of the season to see if a key injury or some early season struggles force a team's hand a little bit, but I wouldn't expect the market for him to go crazy all of a sudden. His contract simply it makes it too difficult for most teams to take him on. As far as the secondary guys - Lowry, DD, Amir - I think their value would be in line with what guys like Scola or Gortat were able to fetch. Salary relief and one decent asset like a non lottery first rounder or a good prospect.

[BrydenB]

I'm late on the vote (I do more reading of the forums than actual posting) but I was one of the few who voted for complete blow up regardless of what comes back. Heck, I would have taken Detroit's poo poo platter offer for Rudy. Here's why: The Raptors need an exciting, dynamic player to excite the masses. A rookie like some of the crop coming in. Internal growth is great, striving for playoffs with a young core is great. But the Raptors are essentially capped out with a core that most likely gets them in the bottom of the playoffs. When LeBron came, vets IMMEDIATELY wanted to play with him even though it was Cleveland. Blake Griffin single handedly changed the stigma of the Clippers. Raptors need something like that. I want the best chance at the best player coming in THIS YEAR. I don't want to mess around with holding on to DD, Rudy or Lowry and amass more wins than we should. I want them gone, I want to find out what we have in Ross, and I want JV to have the offense run through him.

[Axel]

If the Poll Question was: Would you trade Rudy Gay at all costs? instead of including DD and Lowry, then my answer is yes.

Gay has to be traded. Lowry should be traded. Demar could be traded.

[p00ka]

LMAO, and pro-tankers blame anti-tankers for not understanding their particular take on "tanking". It shouldn't be any wonder, as the term seems to be a constantly moving target, usually changing upon whatever arguments are made against.

1. Now, a team that wins 2 str8 division titles, with 62 and 59 wins, and goes out and gets Dominique to put them over the hump, "tanks" by injury to their two best players. Huh?
2. Unloading the likes of Daequan Cook, Chris Quinn, and uncontrolled pot smoking nut job Beasley, is tanking, cuz it cleared cap space. Huh?
3. Now we have Fully saying "Giving away your players to explicitly gun for the worst record in the league should not be an option, and I don't think Ujiri would ever consider it. The chances of your rebuild being successful are directly related to the amount of value you're able to get back during the dismantling process... so not getting the best deal(s) possible is shooting yourself in the foot.",,,,,,, followed by "liking" the following post, which is exactly what he just said was shooting oneself in the foot:

I'm late on the vote (I do more reading of the forums than actual posting) but I was one of the few who voted for complete blow up regardless of what comes back. Heck, I would have taken Detroit's poo poo platter offer for Rudy. Here's why: The Raptors need an exciting, dynamic player to excite the masses. A rookie like some of the crop coming in. Internal growth is great, striving for playoffs with a young core is great. But the Raptors are essentially capped out with a core that most likely gets them in the bottom of the playoffs. When LeBron came, vets IMMEDIATELY wanted to play with him even though it was Cleveland. .............Blake Griffin single handedly changed the stigma of the Clippers. Raptors need something like that. I want the best chance at the best player coming in THIS YEAR. I don't want to mess around with holding on to DD, Rudy or Lowry and amass more wins than we should. I want them gone, I want to find out what we have in Ross, and I want JV to have the offense run through him.

Sheeesh, confusion reigns supreme, and it isn't any fault of the anti-tankers.

On to the above post.

"The Raptors need an exciting, dynamic player to excite the masses."

Why do you say that? The seats are full. They're one of the most profitable teams in the league. You shouldn't confuse yourself and a few dozen others at RR as "the masses". The Raps arguably have the best starting line-up they've had in a decade, and I'd bet that the majority of people in the seats are far more concerned about seeing good basketball this year, than about fantasies of excitement over getting a high school phenom to play with a team of scrubs for the next few years.

"When LeBron came, vets IMMEDIATELY wanted to play with him even though it was Cleveland."

What vets flocked to Cleveland? Nobody. Vets didn't gravitate to him until he left and teamed up with his 2 buddies in Miami. 7 years in Cleveland and he didn't manage to attract anybody of significance, much less immediately.

"Blake Griffin single handedly changed the stigma of the Clippers."

Ummm, no. A trade acquiring Chris Paul did that.

"I want JV to have the offense run through him."

Ummmm, aside from him being far from ready for that, take away Rudy, DD, Lowry and there is no offense except for him, and he'd be shut down so quick with double and triple teams every time he touched that ball, that he wouldn't develop a damn thing except getting rid of the ball to scrubs quickly, only to see the offense fall apart.

[BrydenB]

LMAO, and pro-tankers blame anti-tankers for not understanding their particular take on "tanking". It shouldn't be any wonder, as the term seems to be a constantly moving target, usually changing upon whatever arguments are made against.

1. Now, a team that wins 2 str8 division titles, with 62 and 59 wins, and goes out and gets Dominique to put them over the hump, "tanks" by injury to their two best players. Huh?
2. Unloading the likes of Daequan Cook, Chris Quinn, and uncontrolled pot smoking nut job Beasley, is tanking, cuz it cleared cap space. Huh?
3. Now we have Fully saying "Giving away your players to explicitly gun for the worst record in the league should not be an option, and I don't think Ujiri would ever consider it. The chances of your rebuild being successful are directly related to the amount of value you're able to get back during the dismantling process... so not getting the best deal(s) possible is shooting yourself in the foot.",,,,,,, followed by "liking" the following post, which is exactly what he just said was shooting oneself in the foot:



Sheeesh, confusion reigns supreme, and it isn't any fault of the anti-tankers.

On to the above post.

"The Raptors need an exciting, dynamic player to excite the masses."

Why do you say that? The seats are full. They're one of the most profitable teams in the league. You shouldn't confuse yourself and a few dozen others at RR as "the masses". The Raps arguably have the best starting line-up they've had in a decade, and I'd bet that the majority of people in the seats are far more concerned about seeing good basketball this year, than about fantasies of excitement over getting a high school phenom to play with a team of scrubs for the next few years.

"When LeBron came, vets IMMEDIATELY wanted to play with him even though it was Cleveland."

What vets flocked to Cleveland? Nobody. Vets didn't gravitate to him until he left and teamed up with his 2 buddies in Miami. 7 years in Cleveland and he didn't manage to attract anybody of significance, much less immediately.

"Blake Griffin single handedly changed the stigma of the Clippers."

Ummm, no. A trade acquiring Chris Paul did that.

"I want JV to have the offense run through him."

Ummmm, aside from him being far from ready for that, take away Rudy, DD, Lowry and there is no offense except for him, and he'd be shut down so quick with double and triple teams every time he touched that ball, that he wouldn't develop a damn thing except getting rid of the ball to scrubs quickly, only to see the offense fall apart.

Bold 1. I don't confuse myself and other RR posters as "the masses". I mean the general public that watches basketball. Remember when VC was the hottest name in the league? Remember when TV companies wanted to cover the Raptors just to see him play? I do. Obviously the team played better and yeah that is a factor, but so is how exciting Vince was.

Bold 2. See above but replace VC with Blake. People tuned in just to see what he was gonna do next. Who he would dunk on, how it would all go down. This builds intrigue for a team with a history of being terrible. Would Chris Paul every have thought about staying without Blake changing some of those perceptions?

Bold 3. He learns to see where doubles come from at an NBA level. He learns to fight through or pass out, and when to do each option. And you know what if he gets shut down, more losses = more ping pong chances.

As for the debate about what "tanking" actually means, it is semantics but let me throw in my two cents: What i'm proposing is a tank in the truest sense of the words. Management trading away pieces that could contribute to wins just to lose more. Actively attempting to lose with no apologies. What some are proposing may in fact be more of a "rebuild", playing youngs guys and assessing what they have, while still maybe gathering some ping pong balls.

Lastly, I cheer for the Raptors, I'm a fan. If they make the playoffs I'm good. If MU takes until the deadline and then maybe gets some value, I won't be mad. If they tank right away then I'm good that way too. Whether its ASAP or later, I just want success at a high level for the team I love.

[Fully]

I liked the post below mine because there were parts of it that I really agreed with... Mainly the part about how one transcendent talent can completely alter a team's outlook (none of this "culture change" BS as the team continues to sputter), and the part about Jonas becoming a focal point of the offense once the roster has been dismantled in the short term.

I had no idea that the posts we "like" were under such scrutiny.

[golden]

I liked the post below mine because there were parts of it that I really agreed with... Mainly the part about how one transcendent talent can completely alter a team's outlook (none of this "culture change" BS as the team continues to sputter), and the part about Jonas becoming a focal point of the offense once the roster has been dismantled in the short term.

I had no idea that the posts we "like" were under such scrutiny.

As Matt said, like love & marriage, it really shouldn't be a debate of culture VS. talent. You need both. Great culture can see results that maximize and exceed the expected talent level, and a bad culture can get disappointing results with seemingly sure-fire talent.

Brad Stevens & Danny Ainge sum it up nicely....

Q: He said culture is the most important thing. How important is that in the NBA?

A: “I’ve never been around a coach that didn’t value culture. It’s just something that you’re always weighing, because you can find 12 players at Butler and have a great culture, but they don’t have enough talent to win. You can also be a coach at Butler and have a great culture and overachieve and beat teams that have more McDonald’s All-Americans. With character and culture, you can overachieve. In the NBA, it’s pretty much proven to this extent that there are teams that can overachieve in a great culture. And I think culture is crucial. But it’s always a balance of those players that bring great character and integrity and work ethic to the game vs. talent. And often you’re making choices like that. If you don’t have enough talent, you don’t have a chance, either.”

http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/20...hlM/story.html

The difference is that culture is something you can always (or should) control. Access to talent is not.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

As Matt said, like love & marriage, it really shouldn't be a debate of culture VS. talent. You need both. Great culture can see results that maximize and exceed the expected talent level, and a bad culture can get disappointing results with seemingly sure-fire talent.

Brad Stevens & Danny Ainge sum it up nicely....



http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/20...hlM/story.html

The difference is that culture is something you can always (or should) control. Access to talent is not.

Nice post.

Another factor that I think is somewhat being alluded to, without actually being mentioned, is fit. You need to have talent and good team culture/chemistry, but it also needs to fit. One of the big knocks about the Raptors' current roster is that even if the team does build a good culture, even if they develop good chemistry and even if all the talent/potential is maximized, the problem is that the pieces don't fit to get all that well.

[special1]

Nice post.

Another factor that I think is somewhat being alluded to, without actually being mentioned, is fit. You need to have talent and good team culture/chemistry, but it also needs to fit. One of the big knocks about the Raptors' current roster is that even if the team does build a good culture, even if they develop good chemistry and even if all the talent/potential is maximized, the problem is that the pieces don't fit to get all that well.

Sigh..... Are you aware that the Raptors had one of the best line-ups (Lowry, Derozan, Rudy, Amir, JV) in the ENTIRE nba last year?? I actually think our core fits great together. Proof??? Our starters had an +/- 11.9 point differential which was 3rd in the entire league behind Miami, San Antonio and ahead of Indiana (barely). Please keep in mind that this is after Rudy came so there is plenty of room for improvement.

There is another thread discussing this! Shout out to TheGloveInRapsUniform for the link to the article below.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/10/...sis-miami-heat

How do you know that this team as constructed don't fit together all that well without even watching ONE NBA regular season game?? Again, some posters have such a pessimistic attitude towards our team. I understand that we've been disappointed MANY times over the years BUT the PAST is the PAST. Please give these guys at least a few weeks before you start talking negatively about fit!

We have so many posters on here who seem to know the future. I, like Ujiri, is on a wait and see right now. Enjoy the game tonight everyone!

[Nilanka]

The "past" is still the current until proven otherwise

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Sigh..... Are you aware that the Raptors had one of the best line-ups (Lowry, Derozan, Rudy, Amir, JV) in the ENTIRE nba last year?? I actually think our core fits great together. Proof??? Our starters had an +/- 11.9 point differential which was 3rd in the entire league behind Miami, San Antonio and ahead of Indiana (barely). Please keep in mind that this is after Rudy came so there is plenty of room for improvement.

There is another thread discussing this! Shout out to TheGloveInRapsUniform for the link to the article below.

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/10/...sis-miami-heat

How do you know that this team as constructed don't fit together all that well without even watching ONE NBA regular season game?? Again, some posters have such a pessimistic attitude towards our team. I understand that we've been disappointed MANY times over the years BUT the PAST is the PAST. Please give these guys at least a few weeks before you start talking negatively about fit!

We have so many posters on here who seem to know the future. I, like Ujiri, is on a wait and see right now. Enjoy the game tonight everyone!

I was referring to the article and a common analysis put forth by experts/insiders about the Raptors' starting lineup.

Besides, I could care less about what that lineup-related stat shows. It's not like it helped the team become a playoff team, or even a good team. You tell me not to live in the past, but then point to a stat from last season (that lineup was together less than half a season) as justification for why any concerns about the construction of the Raptors starting lineup not being ideal. A little bit hypocritical, no?

I also never suggested the Raptors make any roster moves, especially not immediately.

I was just pointing out that 'fit', along with talent and culture/chemistry, is an important ingredient for any successful team. That's applicable to any team, not just NBA teams and certainly not just the Raptors.

No need to be so defensive. I don't think my post deserved such a snarky "Sigh..." response, especially since you clearly read way more into my post than I actually said, and missed my main point entirely.

[mcHAPPY]

Dave Berri wrote a piece at Freakonomics yesterday about tanking.

Summary quotes:





Let's assume Houston and Miami are the top teams this year, which is fairly uncontroversial at this point. Houston acquired D12, Harden, Asik, et al. through trades or free agency. They did draft Parsons and certain other players, but not with a lottery pick (Parsons was a second rounder). Miami has some or their own picks, most notably Wade. But they obviously built this team with cap space and free agency.

You need assets to build through trades though... Cap space helps too.

[mcHAPPY]

Dave Berri wrote a piece at Freakonomics yesterday about tanking.

Summary quotes:





Let's assume Houston and Miami are the top teams this year, which is fairly uncontroversial at this point. Houston acquired D12, Harden, Asik, et al. through trades or free agency. They did draft Parsons and certain other players, but not with a lottery pick (Parsons was a second rounder). Miami has some or their own picks, most notably Wade. But they obviously built this team with cap space and free agency.

By the way, nice post and find.