Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A new take on tanking - opponents of this need not click this thread

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Sounds more like a prediction, but I still think it will happen at the 25-30 game mark and I think this is the ideal situation. At the 30 game mark, we'd still have a chance to fall into a nice draft position, and that mark also signifies a good one third of the season which is a fair amount of time to gauge the team's potential.

    The "Trade at all costs" scenario is a bit ridiculous so I agree with p00ka on that, with apologies to the lone guy who thought this was a feasible option. This isn't Nortel stock where you know it's about to crash and you need to get rid of all your shares at all costs before you lose everything. It's not a sinking ship; it's more like a ship that is treading water and DeRozan/Gay/Lowry is the mishaped peg that is keeping the water from gushing in.

    If you look at the moves that Cleveland made to get into the position they're at now, they didn't necessarily make bad trades. Every move had a goal in mind; cutting salaries and gaining prospects/picks. We just have to be smart, and by no means do I think we can get proper value. We just have to maximize what we can, and then trade accordingly.
    your pal,
    ebrian

    Comment


    • #47
      I am generally a proponent of building through the draft as I see no other way for the Raps to put together a contender. I'd also favour the Houston route.

      I really wanted them to tear it down and do a complete rebuild when Bosh left. I felt like that was the ideal time to start over from scratch. Now, it's less clear. After the 2014-15 season, the current roster is off the books other than Val, Derozan and lesser guys like Acy and Ross. If you could put a competitive team on the floor for the next two seasons (even a low playoff seed) while maintaining that 2015 cap flexibility, then I think they need to try. I could have been sold on a total tear down at the end of last year but it's hard to see how it works at this point without sacrificing that 2015-16 season, which could be a big year if Val develops and they are able to bring in an impact player.

      Comment


      • #48
        slaw wrote: View Post
        I am generally a proponent of building through the draft as I see no other way for the Raps to put together a contender. I'd also favour the Houston route.
        The Houston route is probably not duplicable. Houston's ascension relied on a bunch of things that are either hard to duplicate or near-impossible to duplicate:

        1. Drafting Chandler Parsons in the second round and having him turn into a credible NBA starter in less than a season and a half (very hard)
        2. Trading away a useful large expiring contract, an unproven prospect and a first-round pick for James Harden (basically impossible - a trade like that will not happen again, especially considering that Harden was traded solely because of OKC's issues with the new CBA and cap)
        3. Having Patrick Beverley, a second-round pick who was bouncing around foreign leagues, turn into a potential NBA starter (not impossible, but definitely hard)
        4. Attracting Dwight Howard away from the Lakers (again, almost impossible, especially since it was Harden's presence that was one of the key factors in getting Howard)

        Turning second-round picks into gold is difficult but doable, and I think Masai and Jeff Weltman have a track record of drafting very, very smartly. That we can do. But the Harden trade was a once-in-a-decade thing, a superstar being traded not because he was bitterly unhappy (and bitter, unhappy players always want to go to New York or LA or other glamour markets - see Carmelo, Dwight, etc.) but because his team only wanted to pay him $14 million rather than $16 million at a time when NBA teams hadn't yet fully adjusted to the realities of the new CBA. The Harden trade probably wouldn't happen today, even with all other factors being equal, simply because middle-tier contracts have started shrinking in response to the new CBA and OKC would have been more confident that they would afford a team after paying Harden on top of Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka (okay, and Perkins).

        Houston executed a complex game plan near-perfectly and Daryl Morey deserves lots of credit. But they also got lucky at every point they needed to roll the dice.

        Comment


        • #49
          Lark Benson wrote: View Post
          Agree completely. But I'd still rather bottom out now than tread water for another 2 years or more. But that's just a matter of fan perspective, and I think if nothing else this poll reflects the fact that Raps supporters would apparently rather see any kind of short term success than be dragged through another 2-3 year rebuild unless the team magically hits lottery gold.
          I agree, I just worry that the best window has expired, and we are now in the 2nd best option phase.

          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          Was that even an option though? I know it was rumoured but I can't see it having had any credibility.
          I don't see why there isn't any credibility. Cavs were actively shopping the pick but no one wanted to trade up. The Cavs are going into a win-now mode, hence the Bynum signing (which probably wouldn't have happened with a Gay acquisition) and are still rumoured as a possible destination for Gay. The Cavs need a SF. They signed CJ Miles to be their starter last year and I don't think they've greatly improved from there. They have an aggressive (sometimes too) owner who wants to win and is willing to take a short-cut or two to get there.

          And if those aren't convincing enough arguments, I submit Exhibit C, thread about it started by you.
          http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...r-1&highlight=
          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

          Comment


          • #50
            Axel wrote: View Post
            I agree, I just worry that the best window has expired, and we are now in the 2nd best option phase.



            I don't see why there isn't any credibility. Cavs were actively shopping the pick but no one wanted to trade up. The Cavs are going into a win-now mode, hence the Bynum signing (which probably wouldn't have happened with a Gay acquisition) and are still rumoured as a possible destination for Gay. The Cavs need a SF. They signed CJ Miles to be their starter last year and I don't think they've greatly improved from there. They have an aggressive (sometimes too) owner who wants to win and is willing to take a short-cut or two to get there.

            And if those aren't convincing enough arguments, I submit Exhibit C, thread about it started by you.
            http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...r-1&highlight=
            Yes, I remember the thread. But I thought it was clear I was connecting some dots and there were some liberties taken on my part i.e. Cleveland looking for small forward, Cleveland interested in Gay in the past = hey! Toronto has Gay now, still interested? I don't recall anything that specifically said Gay to Cleveland for #1. It was more asking people, "Would you?"

            Comment


            • #51
              Lark Benson wrote: View Post
              Agree completely. But I'd still rather bottom out now than tread water for another 2 years or more. But that's just a matter of fan perspective, and I think if nothing else this poll reflects the fact that Raps supporters would apparently rather see any kind of short term success than be dragged through another 2-3 year rebuild unless the team magically hits lottery gold.
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              Yes, I remember the thread. But I thought it was clear I was connecting some dots and there were some liberties taken on my part i.e. Cleveland looking for small forward, Cleveland interested in Gay in the past = hey! Toronto has Gay now, still interested? I don't recall anything that specifically said Gay to Cleveland for #1. It was more asking people, "Would you?"
              But Matt, you're my most reliable inside source. Don't toy with my emotions man

              In all seriousness, I still think it was an option. Regardless of how many dots you connected for this thread, it wasn't the only source of chatter. How serious discussions were? No idea. But if it was an option, it would have been one that I would have pursued. As we have learned from MU this summer, we aren't likely going to hear rumours or leaks from him, so connecting the dots is likely our only course to even discuss any potential moves.

              If it wasn't a choice, then perhaps we are stuck with the roster until deals start expiring, but if it was, it was my #1 choice of potential moves.
              Heir, Prince of Cambridge

              If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

              Comment


              • #52
                TRex wrote: View Post
                B. Only trade them if you get VALUABLE assets in return. And i mean, VALUABLE.

                Tanking is for losers. And just like Masai said a couple of days ago: "You dont teach winning by losing"
                We all would like to get the best available player out of the draft . That said it is tough to be hanging on the drop of a Ping pong ball every year to rebuild your team. If we could have a realistic chance to get wiggins next year I would be all for full tank mode but, I just do not see that in the cards. How raps stand by Christmas will dictate how things play out.

                Comment


                • #53
                  So, anything new being said in light of this "new take? I don't see anything, from anybody, that hasn't been repeated multiple times, in multiple threads, all off-season long. So we know for the umpteenth time that virtually nobody supports unloading our best players for anything other than VALUABLE ASSETS. Great! I could support that! That's been reiterated numerous times, but it's all just pie-in-the-sky generalities. Unless someone has realistic (for both sides) scenarios to suggest for discussion, there's nothing new to discuss, as evidenced by the posts. What are these "valuable assets" you think could realistically be available?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    By not tanking, Masai is missing a golden opportunity considering how deep in talent, the upcoming draft will be. As far as getting fair return for players is concerned, I don't see why not. His shrewdness in the Bargnani trade shows what he's capable of. Besides he does have a track record(Denver) of making good trades.
                    Attitude Is A Choice.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
                      By not tanking, Masai is missing a golden opportunity considering how deep in talent, the upcoming draft will be. As far as getting fair return for players is concerned, I don't see why not. His shrewdness in the Bargnani trade shows what he's capable of. Besides he does have a track record(Denver) of making good trades.
                      Yup, Masai should be able to pull the trigger on a deal at any time and get maximum value for his players. Right now he is just stalling and being indecisive, most likely to only make a boneheaded trade/signing in the future.

                      Where have we seen this before? Oh yeah, Bryan Colangelo.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        p00ka wrote: View Post
                        So, anything new being said in light of this "new take? I don't see anything, from anybody, that hasn't been repeated multiple times, in multiple threads, all off-season long. So we know for the umpteenth time that virtually nobody supports unloading our best players for anything other than VALUABLE ASSETS. Great! I could support that! That's been reiterated numerous times, but it's all just pie-in-the-sky generalities. Unless someone has realistic (for both sides) scenarios to suggest for discussion, there's nothing new to discuss, as evidenced by the posts. What are these "valuable assets" you think could realistically be available?
                        Yeesh so much needless anger.

                        Personally I enjoyed the thread, as the one guy that supports dumping the current roster for anything you can get to free up development time for the kids and tank the season, I was genuinely surprised at how few shared this view. Now I have a lot of resultant questions, like how much of the current perception of the team and it's position is based on Ujiri's message to the fans after his hiring, what people think the team can realistically get for it's players in the market and what people think of the relative value of assets vs development time in relation to postponing a rebuild.

                        Maybe I just haven't been following these boards all that closely over the summer, but to me this all represents a pretty interesting shift away from the 'burn it down, tank away' mentality that I remembered being present toward the end of last season. So to me, yeah this thread has been interesting.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                          Yeesh so much needless anger.

                          Personally I enjoyed the thread, as the one guy that supports dumping the current roster for anything you can get to free up development time for the kids and tank the season, I was genuinely surprised at how few shared this view. Now I have a lot of resultant questions, like how much of the current perception of the team and it's position is based on Ujiri's message to the fans after his hiring, what people think the team can realistically get for it's players in the market and what people think of the relative value of assets vs development time in relation to postponing a rebuild.

                          Maybe I just haven't been following these boards all that closely over the summer, but to me this all represents a pretty interesting shift away from the 'burn it down, tank away' mentality that I remembered being present toward the end of last season. So to me, yeah this thread has been interesting.
                          Glad someone got something from it.

                          Also cool to see people with a difference of opinion discuss back and forth.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Lark Benson wrote: View Post
                            Yeesh so much needless anger.

                            Personally I enjoyed the thread, as the one guy that supports dumping the current roster for anything you can get to free up development time for the kids and tank the season, I was genuinely surprised at how few shared this view. Now I have a lot of resultant questions, like how much of the current perception of the team and it's position is based on Ujiri's message to the fans after his hiring, what people think the team can realistically get for it's players in the market and what people think of the relative value of assets vs development time in relation to postponing a rebuild.

                            Maybe I just haven't been following these boards all that closely over the summer, but to me this all represents a pretty interesting shift away from the 'burn it down, tank away' mentality that I remembered being present toward the end of last season. So to me, yeah this thread has been interesting.
                            I'm happy for you that you find it interesting, but please explain where you see "no much needless anger" in that post? I don't see it, but if it's there, maybe it's residual from being told to stay out of the sandbox. I apologize if that's carrying over, but where are you seeing anything of the kind, rather than me stating what I see as facts about nothing "new" (free to dispute that) , and my opinion about how useless it is to re-hash the same stuff that's been hammered to death (most here have been here through the summer), in numerous threads, without any feasible scenarios to discuss?

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              p00ka wrote: View Post
                              I'm happy for you that you find it interesting, but please explain where you see "no much needless anger" in that post? I don't see it, but if it's there, maybe it's residual from being told to stay out of the sandbox. I apologize if that's carrying over, but where are you seeing anything of the kind, rather than me stating what I see as facts about nothing "new" (free to dispute that) , and my opinion about how useless it is to re-hash the same stuff that's been hammered to death (most here have been here through the summer), in numerous threads, without any feasible scenarios to discuss?
                              To me your tone comes off as extremely negative and condescending. It reads like a rant directed at someone you consider to be of lesser intelligence, as if you believe you're stating the obvious, and people usually don't rant unless they're angry or exasperated. So maybe anger wasn't the right word, but negativity certainly would have fit.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Negativity now? Good lord! I'm feeling your negativity, man, just as I felt the negativity telling me and others to stay out. Hell, if you want to talk negativity, in one form or another you'd have to talk about 1/2 to 3/4 of the posts here, and about 90% of posts from some people. Hell, Matt here invades just about any thread that discusses any player on the team, except JV, in a positive light, with "negativity", but people don't tell him to get the hell out,,,,, out of courtesy. People don't come here just to pat each other on the back. This isn't a Raptors Kumbaya forum.

                                Speaking of negative, you proclaim to want to sell off the entire team immediately, for whatever scrap can be had. Now that's something beyond negativity. Coming from that viewpoint, please refrain from preaching to me about negativity.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X