View Poll Results: How bad do you want to see the Raptors tank/rebuild/blow it up/build through draft?

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  • Trade Lowry, Gay, DD at all costs! Getthem off the roster and books, the faster the better!

    3 6.38%
  • Only trade them if you get valuable assets in return.

    44 93.62%
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Thread: A new take on tanking - opponents of this need not click this thread

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    i think (HOPE) with the warlord MU, you can safely bet that he isn't going to simply take garbage (expirings --> crappy players to get said expirings) so he can tank. i figure he might flip gay/demar/lowry/? for young talent and picks, if at all.

    i THINK the warlord MU knows he doesn't really NEED to trade gay or lowry since they're in contract years and he'll be freed some cash to go get his type players. unless of course a team that isn't necessarily a FA hotspot REALLY wants one of them and figures they have a better chance resigning them than getting them in the open market. entirely possible. charlotte? milwaukee?

    demar though... i think is a goner. and i think it has less to do with his skills than his retarded contract. which is kind of a shame because honestly, i like demar. his failings are specific skill based, not attitude or effort. you certainly can't fault DD for taking that contract and running with it.

    anyways to get this long winded post back on track, i'm in the tanking crew (go tanking!) but i don't think a fire sale does the team that much good, as patiently waiting for the best move is the best course of action. does that make sense? i've had like 5 coffees and i'm kind of jittery.
    @jerboat

  2. #42
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    A few points.

    1. Realistically, we have to do one thing to tank, and that is trade Lowry: once Lowry is gone this team caps out at thirty wins, because all of the remaining point guards are less capable than JL3 was last year.

    2. One major argument for trading at least one of Rudy or DeMar is actually the fact that they potentially impede developing Jonas because they're both high-usage-rate players. If Jonas is going to become who we all hope he's going to become, then he's gonna need touches, and a lot of them (and given his extremely efficient shooting percentages he should be getting them anyway) - but so far this preseason Jonas is getting less touches than he did last year (and he didn't get a lot then). If Rudy and DeMar don't drop their usage rates - and let's be honest, that's almost certainly not going to happen - then you need to ship at least one of them so Jonas gets more touches, or else you're simply wasting a year of development for Jonas.

    3. This means that, if you think that the Raptors aren't going to make the playoffs this year - and practically every basketball writer on the planet has them topping out, max, at a 7-8 seed and most are skeptical they make it, and that includes most of the good writers, not just the crappy ones churning out words for cash at ESPN - the best thing you can do, from a development standpoint, is trade Lowry and at least one of Rudy or DeMar. Trading Lowry makes your 2014 draft pick better. Trading one of Rudy or DeMar makes Jonas better. The 2014 pick and Jonas improving are the two most obvious immediate opportunities for making the Raptors a better team.

    4. Any serious discussion of tanking/rebuilding/whatever also has to discuss trading Amir. Amir is the player who makes the whole team better. Obviously nobody WANTS to trade Amir, he's T-dot to the bone now, but basketball is bidness and you gotta think: what does Amir bring on the trade market? And would that value outweigh the value of Amir staying (since he would obviously help Jonas become a better player faster - the two are a natural pairing)? These are tough questions and I'm not going to give a declarative answer there - but they have to be considered.

    5. This doesn't mean we should give up anybody for peanuts, because we shouldn't: Masai understands better than anybody the way to advance quickly within the NBA is to make sure that in any trade, the other side thinks it's a 1:1 trade when in fact it's a 2:1. (e.g. if you trade Rudy for a good prospect or a pick plus expirings, you get a young player with upside, you get money freed up - AND you get more touches for Jonas to develop him faster). We should look to get back at least one good prospect or good pick from any trade. Preferably more if Masai can manage it (and the man is a damn good trader). When I say "good prospect" I don't just mean "young player" either. Bismack Biyombo, for example, is not a good prospect at this point - he's a reclamation project. Good prospects in the league presently are guys like MKG, Giannis, Thomas Robinson, maybe Isaiah Thomas, that level.

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  4. #43
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    basically, i think the warlord MU's best case scenario is to win the championship... but since that isn't happening and isn't realistic with this current team in place he needs to rebuild. best way to rebuild is draft picks/young, core players and $$$. realistically, getting the $$$ is easy. just don't resign anyone. getting the draft picks and young, talented players is the tough part.
    @jerboat

  5. #44
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    ALSO, i really like 'Po and think MU is going to go HARD for him, giving up just about anything outside of JV or a first round pick. dude is really raw but he's already causing chaos on the defensive end. having a guy like him develop alongside JV would be really fun to watch.
    @jerboat

  6. #45
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    like, having a guy like Gay IS fun to watch i'm not disputing that. watching him hit those game winners last year was dope.

    BUT

    would watching a team that looks like... JV/Amir/Po/Ross/Lowry be that much less exciting? i mean yeah they'd lose a TON of games but that's kind of the point and i think the fans realize that, but at the same time that'd be a pretty fun nucleus to watch right??

    people forget how fun Lowry was to watch last year when he was healthy. make him the second option again. let lowry be lowry. have some fun. get in some faces. run around and throw lobs to everyone. take some hilariously ill advised 3s.

    then at the end of the year don't resign him and draft smart/exum
    @jerboat

  7. #46
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Sounds more like a prediction, but I still think it will happen at the 25-30 game mark and I think this is the ideal situation. At the 30 game mark, we'd still have a chance to fall into a nice draft position, and that mark also signifies a good one third of the season which is a fair amount of time to gauge the team's potential.

    The "Trade at all costs" scenario is a bit ridiculous so I agree with p00ka on that, with apologies to the lone guy who thought this was a feasible option. This isn't Nortel stock where you know it's about to crash and you need to get rid of all your shares at all costs before you lose everything. It's not a sinking ship; it's more like a ship that is treading water and DeRozan/Gay/Lowry is the mishaped peg that is keeping the water from gushing in.

    If you look at the moves that Cleveland made to get into the position they're at now, they didn't necessarily make bad trades. Every move had a goal in mind; cutting salaries and gaining prospects/picks. We just have to be smart, and by no means do I think we can get proper value. We just have to maximize what we can, and then trade accordingly.
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  8. #47
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    I am generally a proponent of building through the draft as I see no other way for the Raps to put together a contender. I'd also favour the Houston route.

    I really wanted them to tear it down and do a complete rebuild when Bosh left. I felt like that was the ideal time to start over from scratch. Now, it's less clear. After the 2014-15 season, the current roster is off the books other than Val, Derozan and lesser guys like Acy and Ross. If you could put a competitive team on the floor for the next two seasons (even a low playoff seed) while maintaining that 2015 cap flexibility, then I think they need to try. I could have been sold on a total tear down at the end of last year but it's hard to see how it works at this point without sacrificing that 2015-16 season, which could be a big year if Val develops and they are able to bring in an impact player.

  9. #48
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I am generally a proponent of building through the draft as I see no other way for the Raps to put together a contender. I'd also favour the Houston route.
    The Houston route is probably not duplicable. Houston's ascension relied on a bunch of things that are either hard to duplicate or near-impossible to duplicate:

    1. Drafting Chandler Parsons in the second round and having him turn into a credible NBA starter in less than a season and a half (very hard)
    2. Trading away a useful large expiring contract, an unproven prospect and a first-round pick for James Harden (basically impossible - a trade like that will not happen again, especially considering that Harden was traded solely because of OKC's issues with the new CBA and cap)
    3. Having Patrick Beverley, a second-round pick who was bouncing around foreign leagues, turn into a potential NBA starter (not impossible, but definitely hard)
    4. Attracting Dwight Howard away from the Lakers (again, almost impossible, especially since it was Harden's presence that was one of the key factors in getting Howard)

    Turning second-round picks into gold is difficult but doable, and I think Masai and Jeff Weltman have a track record of drafting very, very smartly. That we can do. But the Harden trade was a once-in-a-decade thing, a superstar being traded not because he was bitterly unhappy (and bitter, unhappy players always want to go to New York or LA or other glamour markets - see Carmelo, Dwight, etc.) but because his team only wanted to pay him $14 million rather than $16 million at a time when NBA teams hadn't yet fully adjusted to the realities of the new CBA. The Harden trade probably wouldn't happen today, even with all other factors being equal, simply because middle-tier contracts have started shrinking in response to the new CBA and OKC would have been more confident that they would afford a team after paying Harden on top of Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka (okay, and Perkins).

    Houston executed a complex game plan near-perfectly and Daryl Morey deserves lots of credit. But they also got lucky at every point they needed to roll the dice.

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  11. #49
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Agree completely. But I'd still rather bottom out now than tread water for another 2 years or more. But that's just a matter of fan perspective, and I think if nothing else this poll reflects the fact that Raps supporters would apparently rather see any kind of short term success than be dragged through another 2-3 year rebuild unless the team magically hits lottery gold.
    I agree, I just worry that the best window has expired, and we are now in the 2nd best option phase.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Was that even an option though? I know it was rumoured but I can't see it having had any credibility.
    I don't see why there isn't any credibility. Cavs were actively shopping the pick but no one wanted to trade up. The Cavs are going into a win-now mode, hence the Bynum signing (which probably wouldn't have happened with a Gay acquisition) and are still rumoured as a possible destination for Gay. The Cavs need a SF. They signed CJ Miles to be their starter last year and I don't think they've greatly improved from there. They have an aggressive (sometimes too) owner who wants to win and is willing to take a short-cut or two to get there.

    And if those aren't convincing enough arguments, I submit Exhibit C, thread about it started by you.
    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...r-1&highlight=

  12. #50
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I agree, I just worry that the best window has expired, and we are now in the 2nd best option phase.



    I don't see why there isn't any credibility. Cavs were actively shopping the pick but no one wanted to trade up. The Cavs are going into a win-now mode, hence the Bynum signing (which probably wouldn't have happened with a Gay acquisition) and are still rumoured as a possible destination for Gay. The Cavs need a SF. They signed CJ Miles to be their starter last year and I don't think they've greatly improved from there. They have an aggressive (sometimes too) owner who wants to win and is willing to take a short-cut or two to get there.

    And if those aren't convincing enough arguments, I submit Exhibit C, thread about it started by you.
    http://www.raptorsrepublic.com/forum...r-1&highlight=
    Yes, I remember the thread. But I thought it was clear I was connecting some dots and there were some liberties taken on my part i.e. Cleveland looking for small forward, Cleveland interested in Gay in the past = hey! Toronto has Gay now, still interested? I don't recall anything that specifically said Gay to Cleveland for #1. It was more asking people, "Would you?"
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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  13. #51
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Agree completely. But I'd still rather bottom out now than tread water for another 2 years or more. But that's just a matter of fan perspective, and I think if nothing else this poll reflects the fact that Raps supporters would apparently rather see any kind of short term success than be dragged through another 2-3 year rebuild unless the team magically hits lottery gold.
    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Yes, I remember the thread. But I thought it was clear I was connecting some dots and there were some liberties taken on my part i.e. Cleveland looking for small forward, Cleveland interested in Gay in the past = hey! Toronto has Gay now, still interested? I don't recall anything that specifically said Gay to Cleveland for #1. It was more asking people, "Would you?"
    But Matt, you're my most reliable inside source. Don't toy with my emotions man

    In all seriousness, I still think it was an option. Regardless of how many dots you connected for this thread, it wasn't the only source of chatter. How serious discussions were? No idea. But if it was an option, it would have been one that I would have pursued. As we have learned from MU this summer, we aren't likely going to hear rumours or leaks from him, so connecting the dots is likely our only course to even discuss any potential moves.

    If it wasn't a choice, then perhaps we are stuck with the roster until deals start expiring, but if it was, it was my #1 choice of potential moves.

  14. #52
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    B. Only trade them if you get VALUABLE assets in return. And i mean, VALUABLE.

    Tanking is for losers. And just like Masai said a couple of days ago: "You dont teach winning by losing"
    We all would like to get the best available player out of the draft . That said it is tough to be hanging on the drop of a Ping pong ball every year to rebuild your team. If we could have a realistic chance to get wiggins next year I would be all for full tank mode but, I just do not see that in the cards. How raps stand by Christmas will dictate how things play out.

  15. #53
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    So, anything new being said in light of this "new take? I don't see anything, from anybody, that hasn't been repeated multiple times, in multiple threads, all off-season long. So we know for the umpteenth time that virtually nobody supports unloading our best players for anything other than VALUABLE ASSETS. Great! I could support that! That's been reiterated numerous times, but it's all just pie-in-the-sky generalities. Unless someone has realistic (for both sides) scenarios to suggest for discussion, there's nothing new to discuss, as evidenced by the posts. What are these "valuable assets" you think could realistically be available?

  16. #54
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    By not tanking, Masai is missing a golden opportunity considering how deep in talent, the upcoming draft will be. As far as getting fair return for players is concerned, I don't see why not. His shrewdness in the Bargnani trade shows what he's capable of. Besides he does have a track record(Denver) of making good trades.
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  17. #55
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    Quote Eric Akshinthala wrote: View Post
    By not tanking, Masai is missing a golden opportunity considering how deep in talent, the upcoming draft will be. As far as getting fair return for players is concerned, I don't see why not. His shrewdness in the Bargnani trade shows what he's capable of. Besides he does have a track record(Denver) of making good trades.
    Yup, Masai should be able to pull the trigger on a deal at any time and get maximum value for his players. Right now he is just stalling and being indecisive, most likely to only make a boneheaded trade/signing in the future.

    Where have we seen this before? Oh yeah, Bryan Colangelo.

  18. #56
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    So, anything new being said in light of this "new take? I don't see anything, from anybody, that hasn't been repeated multiple times, in multiple threads, all off-season long. So we know for the umpteenth time that virtually nobody supports unloading our best players for anything other than VALUABLE ASSETS. Great! I could support that! That's been reiterated numerous times, but it's all just pie-in-the-sky generalities. Unless someone has realistic (for both sides) scenarios to suggest for discussion, there's nothing new to discuss, as evidenced by the posts. What are these "valuable assets" you think could realistically be available?
    Yeesh so much needless anger.

    Personally I enjoyed the thread, as the one guy that supports dumping the current roster for anything you can get to free up development time for the kids and tank the season, I was genuinely surprised at how few shared this view. Now I have a lot of resultant questions, like how much of the current perception of the team and it's position is based on Ujiri's message to the fans after his hiring, what people think the team can realistically get for it's players in the market and what people think of the relative value of assets vs development time in relation to postponing a rebuild.

    Maybe I just haven't been following these boards all that closely over the summer, but to me this all represents a pretty interesting shift away from the 'burn it down, tank away' mentality that I remembered being present toward the end of last season. So to me, yeah this thread has been interesting.

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  20. #57
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Yeesh so much needless anger.

    Personally I enjoyed the thread, as the one guy that supports dumping the current roster for anything you can get to free up development time for the kids and tank the season, I was genuinely surprised at how few shared this view. Now I have a lot of resultant questions, like how much of the current perception of the team and it's position is based on Ujiri's message to the fans after his hiring, what people think the team can realistically get for it's players in the market and what people think of the relative value of assets vs development time in relation to postponing a rebuild.

    Maybe I just haven't been following these boards all that closely over the summer, but to me this all represents a pretty interesting shift away from the 'burn it down, tank away' mentality that I remembered being present toward the end of last season. So to me, yeah this thread has been interesting.
    Glad someone got something from it.

    Also cool to see people with a difference of opinion discuss back and forth.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  21. #58
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Yeesh so much needless anger.

    Personally I enjoyed the thread, as the one guy that supports dumping the current roster for anything you can get to free up development time for the kids and tank the season, I was genuinely surprised at how few shared this view. Now I have a lot of resultant questions, like how much of the current perception of the team and it's position is based on Ujiri's message to the fans after his hiring, what people think the team can realistically get for it's players in the market and what people think of the relative value of assets vs development time in relation to postponing a rebuild.

    Maybe I just haven't been following these boards all that closely over the summer, but to me this all represents a pretty interesting shift away from the 'burn it down, tank away' mentality that I remembered being present toward the end of last season. So to me, yeah this thread has been interesting.
    I'm happy for you that you find it interesting, but please explain where you see "no much needless anger" in that post? I don't see it, but if it's there, maybe it's residual from being told to stay out of the sandbox. I apologize if that's carrying over, but where are you seeing anything of the kind, rather than me stating what I see as facts about nothing "new" (free to dispute that) , and my opinion about how useless it is to re-hash the same stuff that's been hammered to death (most here have been here through the summer), in numerous threads, without any feasible scenarios to discuss?

  22. #59
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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I'm happy for you that you find it interesting, but please explain where you see "no much needless anger" in that post? I don't see it, but if it's there, maybe it's residual from being told to stay out of the sandbox. I apologize if that's carrying over, but where are you seeing anything of the kind, rather than me stating what I see as facts about nothing "new" (free to dispute that) , and my opinion about how useless it is to re-hash the same stuff that's been hammered to death (most here have been here through the summer), in numerous threads, without any feasible scenarios to discuss?
    To me your tone comes off as extremely negative and condescending. It reads like a rant directed at someone you consider to be of lesser intelligence, as if you believe you're stating the obvious, and people usually don't rant unless they're angry or exasperated. So maybe anger wasn't the right word, but negativity certainly would have fit.

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  24. #60
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    Negativity now? Good lord! I'm feeling your negativity, man, just as I felt the negativity telling me and others to stay out. Hell, if you want to talk negativity, in one form or another you'd have to talk about 1/2 to 3/4 of the posts here, and about 90% of posts from some people. Hell, Matt here invades just about any thread that discusses any player on the team, except JV, in a positive light, with "negativity", but people don't tell him to get the hell out,,,,, out of courtesy. People don't come here just to pat each other on the back. This isn't a Raptors Kumbaya forum.

    Speaking of negative, you proclaim to want to sell off the entire team immediately, for whatever scrap can be had. Now that's something beyond negativity. Coming from that viewpoint, please refrain from preaching to me about negativity.

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