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Thread: Chisholm: Raps Wings Not Longterm Solution with JV

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Default Chisholm: Raps Wings Not Longterm Solution with JV

    Chisholm seems to me to be offbase on a lot of this but it should generate some good discussion and/or derision and anger on the boards. Either way! This is probably the big takeaway.....

    That’s why it stands to reason that Masai Ujiri will probably ship out one of his high-priced starting wings this season. At some point he simply needs to free up shots for Valanciunas so that he can develop into the kind of two-way force that the team expects him to be rather than just the Lithuanian version of Noah that Casey so snidely dismissed a year ago. Yes, the team’s offensive efficiency would probably improve by allocating more shots to Valanciunas (and Lowry), and there is no doubt that the financial savings that could come from redistributing DeRozan’s or Gay’s salary would the cap situation, but given what this team’s priorities are right now, pushing Valanciunas to expand his game at the offensive end would be the primary motivation behind re-imagining Toronto’s wing situation.
    http://threeinthekey.ca/raptors-wing...term-solution/

    One thing I did find interesting, JV is actually averaging fewer shots per game in the pre-season than last year (post-trade) and that's with Derozan and Gay playing reduced pre-season minutes. While I don't wholly agree with Chisholm, I do agree that is a worrying development.

    EDIT: One other thought that Chishom throws in as an aside and often gets lost in this discussion. Is Lowry getting enough shots? Would getting Val and Lowry more opps make the offense that much better?

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Chisholm is spot on. team needs more 3 point shooting, less iso/long 2 ball.
    @jerboat

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    His premise as a whole is pretty spot on. The only way JV turns into a true Two-Way center, ala Dwight, is to get the touches.

    I'm not sure you need to trade players in order re-allocate shots though.. just need a good coach.

    And Lowry hasn't exactly high-efficiency either, so I'm not sure giving him Demars or Rudy's shots is a better option.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Chisholm is spot on. team needs more 3 point shooting, less iso/long 2 ball.
    I got that he was advocating to get JV more shots down low ... not more 3 point shooting..
    Mind you, an increase in 3 accuracy would be a factor in any move that shipped out Demar/Rudy.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I got that he was advocating to get JV more shots down low ... not more 3 point shooting..
    Mind you, an increase in 3 accuracy would be a factor in any move that shipped out Demar/Rudy.
    yeah, i'm just saying for JV to have success, we need the wings to be better floor spacers, and not take so many shots. just worded it poorly i guess.
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Mundy's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    His premise as a whole is pretty spot on. The only way JV turns into a true Two-Way center, ala Dwight, is to get the touches.

    I'm not sure you need to trade players in order re-allocate shots though.. just need a good coach.

    And Lowry hasn't exactly high-efficiency either, so I'm not sure giving him Demars or Rudy's shots is a better option.
    I'm on board with this. I still like Casey, but the longer he goes without adding any new intricacies to our offense is putting nails in his coffin. It looks the exact same... we come down, get the ball to JV, he gets doubled, kicks it out and somehow the ball stops within one pass. I don't know how an NBA coach can't stress that the ball needs go get swung QUICKLY in order to get any kind of benefit from escaping a double.
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    The offense doesn't really cater to JV. If he can take advantage of mismatches and offensive rebounds, failed DnB and the limited number of PnR's setup for him, he could have big nights.

    Before that though, he's gotta get better w/ D.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Chisolm's article is pretty much on the money. Only way to get JV more touches is to move one of the wings. Only thing I would add is that it's no urgency to get JV his touches this season and if Gay walks then problem solved. My preferance right now though would be to move Demar instead of Gay.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Chisolm's article is pretty much on the money. Only way to get JV more touches is to move one of the wings. Only thing I would add is that it's no urgency to get JV his touches this season and if Gay walks then problem solved. My preferance right now though would be to move Demar instead of Gay.
    But like I said above, why does anyone need to be traded in order to get JV more shots? Its the coach that draws up the plays, not the players. If coach wants more shots for JV, then JV will get more shots.

    If its a matter of spacing and shooting, then fine. But I don't buy into the whole notion that you need to trade players in order to free up shots. With Demar and Rudy shooting less often, its likely they'll be getting better, more efficient shots anyway.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Here's hoping Nurse runs a lot of plays through the post
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    yeah, i'm just saying for JV to have success, we need the wings to be better floor spacers, and not take so many shots. just worded it poorly i guess.
    I've been thinking about the wings acquired by MU in Denver. All were capable of shooting the three: Fournier, Hamilton, Chandler, Gallinari, Brewer, Fernandez, Quincy Miller.
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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I've been thinking about the wings acquired by MU in Denver. All were capable of shooting the three: Fournier, Hamilton, Chandler, Gallinari, Brewer, Fernandez, Quincy Miller.
    yep. and what do we got?
    @jerboat

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    But like I said above, why does anyone need to be traded in order to get JV more shots? Its the coach that draws up the plays, not the players. If coach wants more shots for JV, then JV will get more shots.

    If its a matter of spacing and shooting, then fine. But I don't buy into the whole notion that you need to trade players in order to free up shots. With Demar and Rudy shooting less often, its likely they'll be getting better, more efficient shots anyway.
    While I see your point about the coach being the one responsible for drawing up plays, I would reference the part in Chisolm's article about having two wings that get paid to score. That's really all DeMar and Gay do well although not particularly efficiently. How are you going to take shots away from the two main scorers on this team and keep them happy?

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    How are you going to take shots away from the two main scorers on this team and keep them happy?
    Ultimately, its the coaches job to say "Suck it up and be a professional"; and I don't see Demar or Rudy doing anything but.
    If it helps the team win, I can't imagine either of them flinching at giving JV a few more shots.

    But assuming either one were a prima donna, and complains about their shots, thats when you ship them out.
    Again, this is only talking about re-alocating shots. If we're talking spacing, financials, etc. then fine.
    But Chisholms was mostly concerned about where JVs shots were going to come from, and I feel like thats up to the Coach. Not the GM.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    While I see your point about the coach being the one responsible for drawing up plays, I would reference the part in Chisolm's article about having two wings that get paid to score. That's really all DeMar and Gay do well although not particularly efficiently. How are you going to take shots away from the two main scorers on this team and keep them happy?
    It would be possible if they were better pick and roll players. They could still have the ball in their hands with the option to score but also be playmakers on occassion.

    Thing is, Gay is a willing passer and always has been. He's also a pretty good passer. His problem throughout the years in Memphis was passing in traffic. Unfortunately, to be a consistent playmaker you are constantly creating traffic around yourself to free other people. If you watch Gay's turnovers this year, virtually every one of them will come when he tries to distribute in congested areas. Derozan is another story. He has always had tunnel vision. I don't think he's a selfish player but it just doesn't seem to be in his game. Maybe, just maybe, as he matures and gets a better feel for the game he will improve in that area.

    For me, the bigger problem than touches for Val (or Amir, don't forget about him) is that the team morphs into a "my turn" team. I can see that very easily happening here and it would be disastrous.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Ultimately, its the coaches job to say "Suck it up and be a professional"; and I don't see Demar or Rudy doing anything but.
    If it helps the team win, I can't imagine either of them flinching at giving JV a few more shots.

    But assuming either one were a prima donna, and complains about their shots, thats when you ship them out.
    Again, this is only talking about re-alocating shots. If we're talking spacing, financials, etc. then fine.
    But Chisholms was mostly concerned about where JVs shots were going to come from, and I feel like thats up to the Coach. Not the GM.
    No deal, don't wait for them to force the decision, cause if they do then the league knows it and you end up with Aaron and Eric Williams for your best player.

    Proactive moves please.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Chisolm's article is pretty much on the money. Only way to get JV more touches is to move one of the wings. Only thing I would add is that it's no urgency to get JV his touches this season and if Gay walks then problem solved. My preferance right now though would be to move Demar instead of Gay.
    This right here. I don't see the urgency this season to get JV a ton of touches, he's still a bit raw, as preseason and international play this summer showed. At the end of the season the problem will solve itself even without a Gay trade because Gay will most likely opt out to get a bigger FA payday.

    If Gay is moved then his replacement is ideally a defensive small forward who needs a lot less touches on offense. That's why trading Gay for MKG seems really appealing to me. He's already strong defensively, needs minimal touches on offense, and could develop with the rest of the team. Makes sense for Charlotte too since they went all in on trying to get better and signed Jefferson to that huge deal. Swapping MKG for Gay gets them firmly into playoff contention, and would be the best Bobcat team ever.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    In Memphis, ZBo, Gasol and Gay were able to get their own shots (i.e. 11+ attempts each).

    Theoretically speaking, the trio of DeRozan, Gay and Jonas should be able to do the same, with a little re-allocation mandated by the coaching staff like Joey suggested.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    No deal, don't wait for them to force the decision, cause if they do then the league knows it and you end up with Aaron and Eric Williams for your best player.
    I don't see either one raising a stink to the media if they each take 4 less shots per game.
    Like I said, if it results in more wins, I can't imagine either would have a problem with it.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    I don't see either one raising a stink to the media if they each take 4 less shots per game.
    Like I said, if it results in more wins, I can't imagine either would have a problem with it.
    Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to see Gay complain. Demar, never. He's a trooper. But Gay has already been marginalized for the bigs for most of his career, does he really want to see it happen again? To an unproven sophomore? I worry about his reaction.

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