Chisholm: Raps Wings Not Longterm Solution with JV

[mcHAPPY]

Lol a player can't improve offensively and defensively or work on both sides of the ball at the same time? He is incapable of improving more than one facet of his game? Please. I was not aware he had a LD.

I guess this is what raptor fans believe after being told year after year that inferior talent is more than it really is.

[p00ka]

Ok now explain to me how throwing him the ball in the post when he very obviously has an advantage is bad for his development? This is just a crazy rant about defense. Of course it's possible to help him develop on both ends. Again, this is just pretty basic basketball to me. It is not ok to simply avoid high % situations on offense because you think he shouldn't get any touches at all until he reaches his peak defensively, or some nonsense.

Lol a player can't improve offensively and defensively or work on both sides of the ball at the same time? He is incapable of improving more than one facet of his game? Please. I was not aware he had a LD.

I guess this is what raptor fans believe after being told year after year that inferior talent is more than it really is.

LMAO, you guys are hilarious.

1. Have you 2 ever chimed in about how well run the Spurs are, and how Pop is the best coach in the NBA?

2. Have you ever noticed that Popovich insists on players doing what he asks of them on defense, or they get a quick hook? No matter who it is? Seriously, no matter who. There's no questioning about how many touches they get. They don't even see the effing floor unless their defensive shit is together. The fool! Doesn't he know a player needs touches to develop?

3. Were you aware that the entire preseason,,,,, it is still preseason, remember,,, has been devoted to focus on defense,, as stated many times by coach and players? DEFENSE, as in step #1 for every player and the team in general. Great coaches, like Pop, usually insist upon Step #1 before considering you for Step #2, especially when dealing with very young bigs who grew up playing a significantly different game. Splitter, an All-Star over in Europe (way beyond the status JV reached as a 19 year old), didn't see more than 6 starts, and more than 20 minutes until his 3rd year, and it wasn't because they already had a quality big to put beside TD. Damn, Pop must have stunted his growth. He needed touches!!

4. Now, during PRESEASON, when the focus is on defense, which depends heavily upon having an anchor at the 5, our future star 5 ain't quite getting it yet, but fans who admire Pop, and claim huge support for defense first, are clamouring for more touches, with nary a word about his defensive weaknesses. If he's playing for Pop, he barely sees the floor when the real games start, but let's ignore Pop's approach and diss Casey and the offense for not giving him more touches! More touches! I want more touches!

Look, of course he can, and is, working on developing at both ends of the court. The thing is, my guess is that the coaches know a tad better than any of us what he needs to focus on the most,,,,, on a defense first team. They may be taking somewhat of a Pop approach of "Defense first, kid. When you got that straight, we'll start working more on getting you more involved on the offensive end". Seems like a hell of a motivating tool, but what does a guy like Pop know, right? According to y'all, defense first proponents, he needs more touches during the defense first focus preseason.

After all that babbling, at the end of the day, I'm just saying I find it hypocritical to be claiming you support a "defense first" approach, then be clamouring for the kid to get more touches, when in fact his defense needs a lot of work. Why aren't you talking about his defense first, because that's apparently what you support? No, it's all about more touches because... *insert basketball 101 reasoning*.

[Xixak]

Lol p00ka just killed the both of you.

Nice post man

[mcHAPPY]

LMAO, you guys are hilarious.

1. Have you 2 ever chimed in about how well run the Spurs are, and how Pop is the best coach in the NBA?

2. Have you ever noticed that Popovich insists on players doing what he asks of them on defense, or they get a quick hook? No matter who it is? Seriously, no matter who. There's no questioning about how many touches they get. They don't even see the effing floor unless their defensive shit is together. The fool! Doesn't he know a player needs touches to develop?

3. Were you aware that the entire preseason,,,,, it is still preseason, remember,,, has been devoted to focus on defense,, as stated many times by coach and players? DEFENSE, as in step #1 for every player and the team in general. Great coaches, like Pop, usually insist upon Step #1 before considering you for Step #2, especially when dealing with very young bigs who grew up playing a significantly different game. Splitter, an All-Star over in Europe (way beyond the status JV reached as a 19 year old), didn't see more than 6 starts, and more than 20 minutes until his 3rd year, and it wasn't because they already had a quality big to put beside TD. Damn, Pop must have stunted his growth. He needed touches!!

4. Now, during PRESEASON, when the focus is on defense, which depends heavily upon having an anchor at the 5, our future star 5 ain't quite getting it yet, but fans who admire Pop, and claim huge support for defense first, are clamouring for more touches, with nary a word about his defensive weaknesses. If he's playing for Pop, he barely sees the floor when the real games start, but let's ignore Pop's approach and diss Casey and the offense for not giving him more touches! More touches! I want more touches!

Look, of course he can, and is, working on developing at both ends of the court. The thing is, my guess is that the coaches know a tad better than any of us what he needs to focus on the most,,,,, on a defense first team. They may be taking somewhat of a Pop approach of "Defense first, kid. When you got that straight, we'll start working more on getting you more involved on the offensive end". Seems like a hell of a motivating tool, but what does a guy like Pop know, right? According to y'all, defense first proponents, he needs more touches during the defense first focus preseason.

After all that babbling, at the end of the day, I'm just saying I find it hypocritical to be claiming you support a "defense first" approach, then be clamouring for the kid to get more touches, when in fact his defense needs a lot of work. Why aren't you talking about his defense first, because that's apparently what you support? No, it's all about more touches because... *insert basketball 101 reasoning*.

And there it is.

All those words wasted when the bold was all that is needed.

Getting looked off on wide open post ups is not developing JV in anyway nor is it good team basketball. If someone is open, given them the ball. I can't speak for WMCJ, but I'm pretty sure that is what he was talking about and I know it is what I am talking about. No one is expecting him to be first, 2nd, or even 3rd option. But when he has a person wide open on his back, give him the ball.

Defense is always the focus - especially with a young C. The problem is if you keep giving the hook to a 21 year old when does he develop? If your only chance for the team to get better as currently constructed is through internal growth, how do you do that with JV's ass stapled to the bench on every screw up? Oh right. We want to put Aaron Gray in because those hard screens he sets are going to create a winning culture 4 years down the road.



And jeepers creepers.... did you really compare the Spurs/Pop to Toronto?

[p00ka]

And there it is.

All those words wasted when the bold was all that is needed.

Getting looked off on wide open post ups is not developing JV in anyway nor is it good team basketball. If someone is open, given them the ball. I can't speak for WMCJ, but I'm pretty sure that is what he was talking about and I know it is what I am talking about. No one is expecting him to be first, 2nd, or even 3rd option. But when he has a person wide open on his back, give him the ball.

Defense is always the focus - especially with a young C. The problem is if you keep giving the hook to a 21 year old when does he develop? If your only chance for the team to get better as currently constructed is through internal growth, how do you do that with JV's ass stapled to the bench on every screw up? Oh right. We want to put Aaron Gray in because those hard screens he sets are going to create a winning culture 4 years down the road.



And jeepers creepers.... did you really compare the Spurs/Pop to Toronto?

I neither compared (ever heard of using a good example to make a point?) to Spurs/Pop, nor did I say he should be stapled to the bench, but way to twist the odd word/phrase, and ignore the point. You're damn good at it!

[mcHAPPY]

I neither compared (ever heard of using a good example to make a point?) to Spurs/Pop, nor did I say he should be stapled to the bench, but way to twist the odd word/phrase, and ignore the point. You're damn good at it!

Ditto.

[p00ka]

Can't address the point if you don't get it, or fear of admitting a misguided view?

[mcHAPPY]

Can't address the point if you don't get it, or fear of admitting a misguided view?

Tough to counter act anything from you at the best of times p00ka.

In this case you've gone off on a tirade about the inability to develop offense and defense at the same time. That is BS and likely stems from years of inferior talent being pushed as more than it is in Toronto.

If the Raptors end up tanking the season, yes, force feed JV.
If the Raptors end up looking to remain competitive and push for a playoff spot, give him the ball when he is open.

That is the point. No one said defense was not a concern and no one but you said he couldn't do both.

But back to your hypocrisy: review the posts. You are the one who made the assumption that offense should be the number 1 priority for JV. You are the one claiming defense doesn't matter. Quite being such a hypocrite.

[white men can't jump]

Yeah, I don't know what p00ka's talking about here. Again, the Spurs emphasize D, that doesn't mean they ignore O. They haven't told Leonard or Green not to take open shots. They don't look off Splitter when he's open on his roll to the basket.

In the end, Pop's system isn't so much about being D first, as it is about one key element of any successful team in any context: accountability. That includes on the offensive end. Wing players looking off an open big man at/near the basket does not preach accountability. I guarantee you if Green or Leonard were not making obvious passes to Duncan or Splitter 5 ft from the basket they'd get a quick hook too.

*And really, if it was supposed to be such a uniform, D first approach, then wouldn't it apply to all the team? Has Terrence Ross been playing such better D than Jonas that it makes sense that he's taken 64 FGAs to Jonas' 38? No, he hasn't. Casey is just letting him chuck it up hoping he'll get comfortable. Which I don't think is the right approach for either player, but it's definitely not right to let Ross do that, and then not at least reward Jonas for his strong play with minimal touches, again, when he tends to have a very clear advantage with very deep position.

As Matt52 said, no one is preaching making him teh primary option, nor has anyone said they shouldn't focus more on his D. Again it's just about basic basketball, and having a level of accountability that makes sense. If you do that, it should be quite helpful for his development on both ends.

[Xixak]

Tough to counter act anything from you at the best of times p00ka.

In this case you've gone off on a tirade about the inability to develop offense and defense at the same time. That is BS and likely stems from years of inferior talent being pushed as more than it is in Toronto.

If the Raptors end up tanking the season, yes, force feed JV.
If the Raptors end up looking to remain competitive and push for a playoff spot, give him the ball when he is open.

That is the point. No one said defense was not a concern and no one but you said he couldn't do both.

But back to your hypocrisy: review the posts. You are the one who made the assumption that offense should be the number 1 priority for JV. You are the one claiming defense doesn't matter. Quite being such a hypocrite.

Dude you're a jerk. If I made a "snark" remark like that, half this board would be on my ass. You don't have the right to just dismiss p00ka's remarks like that. While I'm not as optimistic about this team as he is, I still see his point of view, not cool to just disregard what he says because you two never agree.

The word hypocrisy you used in that last paragraph is very fitting.

[Axel]

Dude you're a poopy-face *edit. If I made a "snark" remark like that, half this board would be on my ass. You don't have the right to just dismiss p00ka's remarks like that. While I'm not as optimistic about this team as he is, I still see his point of view, not cool to just disregard what he says because you two never agree.

The word hypocrisy you used in that last paragraph is very fitting.

That's because you disrespect 90% of the posters on the forum. You've earned your reputation, whether you like it or not.

I don't quite get how this has all been twisted around, but it's quite simple; pass the ball to your teammates. Get them involved. That is one of the things the Spurs do so well, all 5 players are counted on to be productive. If your big man has good position, get him the ball, regardless of whether it's JV, Amir, Tyler or Acy. JV has been working hard to get position, and he's going to be on here posting for Gay/DD to be traded if they keep looking him off so that they can iso. Team ball means trusting your teammates on offence, and helping each other on defence.

[Xixak]

That's because you disrespect 90% of the posters on the forum. You've earned your reputation, whether you like it or not.

Cry me a river.

I don't quite get how this has all been twisted around, but it's quite simple; pass the ball to your teammates. Get them involved. That is one of the things the Spurs do so well, all 5 players are counted on to be productive. If your big man has good position, get him the ball, regardless of whether it's JV, Amir, Tyler or Acy. JV has been working hard to get position, and he's going to be on here posting for Gay/DD to be traded if they keep looking him off so that they can iso. Team ball means trusting your teammates on offence, and helping each other on defence.

.

[KazanTheMan]

Dude you're a jerk. If I made a "snark" remark like that, half this board would be on my ass. You don't have the right to just dismiss p00ka's remarks like that. While I'm not as optimistic about this team as he is, I still see his point of view, not cool to just disregard what he says because you two never agree.

The word hypocrisy you used in that last paragraph is very fitting.

Bro, do you have to pick fights with Matt52 on each thread?

[Axel]

Chisholm: Raps Wings Not Longterm Solution with JV

cry me a river.

How am I crying? You complained that if you made a snarky comment that half the forum would complain, sounds like you're the only one crying.
Your personal vendetta against Matt and anyone who shares his views is quite pathetic. Time to grow up and move on.

~~
Another point back on JV development, we want him to develop on both sides of the ball. Defence should be his first priority in terms of how he works on his game in practice and in the film room. Offensively he will be limited and will likely get most of his baskets from running the paint and offensive put backs. That said, giving him touches when he has worked hard to get good position will reward him for the hard work, allow him some opportunities to use his posts moves in a real game, make him feel more involved and better balance the team's offence, all without taking away from his defensive focus. If he turns it over every time in the post, then yeah, look him off sometimes, but as long as he is working hard, you can't ignore him. If they ignore him too much, he'll get frustrated and that will cause him to lose focus on both sides of the ball.

[mcHAPPY]

Dude you're a jerk. If I made a "snark" remark like that, half this board would be on my ass. You don't have the right to just dismiss p00ka's remarks like that. While I'm not as optimistic about this team as he is, I still see his point of view, not cool to just disregard what he says because you two never agree.

The word hypocrisy you used in that last paragraph is very fitting.

Did you read the rest of the post? Or did you just bold one line?

Look back at post 65. Notice p00ka did not respond to any of my comments? Instead he went to the usual, "You're twisting my words!" (As an aside, yeah, that can often happen on a forum when people are countering many points; tunnel vision can set in; forgetting something else they might have said; etc. etc. it happens).

His long post (#62), which you so gladly proclaimed WMCJ and my own deaths in, did not even address any of the points WMCJ or myself raised. Simple team basketball is pass to the guy who is open - that is basics. Where are the comments I made about defense not mattering or not being a priority? This is the hypocrisy. If I did the same, I apologize. However, because someone brings up points that have no relevancy to my prior comments/thoughts, since when is it my responsibility to recognize them or reply? So instead of getting in to talking points which I consider irrelevant, a nice "ditto" to his word twisting ways was deemed appropriate in my opinion.

Now all this brings us back to my original questions: Did you read the rest of my post? Or did you just bold one line? Because if you continued reading you would have seen my post directly answered this question from p00ka:

Can't address the point if you don't get it, or fear of admitting a misguided view?

Given his own tendencies to go off topic and input statements in the conversation that actually weren't typed, my reply seem quite appropriate, however, I did address his previous post after your single bold sentece:

Tough to counter act anything from you at the best of times p00ka.

In this case you've gone off on a tirade about the inability to develop offense and defense at the same time. That is BS and likely stems from years of inferior talent being pushed as more than it is in Toronto.

If the Raptors end up tanking the season, yes, force feed JV.
If the Raptors end up looking to remain competitive and push for a playoff spot, give him the ball when he is open.

That is the point. No one said defense was not a concern and no one but you said he couldn't do both.

But back to your hypocrisy: review the posts. You are the one who made the assumption that offense should be the number 1 priority for JV. You are the one claiming defense doesn't matter. Quite being such a hypocrite.

But since p00ka brought up the Spurs and specifically Splitter, lets look at Splitter.

p00ka is comparing a 28 year old, 3rd year NBA player who last season averaged 10.3 points and 6.4 rebounds in 24.7 minutes on 56/73% shooting to a 20 year old ROOKIE who averaged 8.9 points and 5.9 rebounds in 23.9 minutes on 55.7/78.9% shooting. Really? Really? This just nails the point I made earlier: Raptor fans have no idea how to develop real talent because they've been exposed to so much mediocre and inferior talent being pushed and marketed as the real deal. Good grief.