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Thread: Star: the deadline is 45 days

  1. #21
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    I suspect it means that the Raps squad has to show that they can get a reasonable number of wins against proper playoff contenders. To wit, in that first 45 days, the Raps play 22 games:

    SHOULD BE RELATIVELY EASY WINS: Philly twice, Boston, Charlotte, Utah, Phoenix, the Lakers
    SHOULD BE EVEN MATCHUPS: Atlanta, Milwaukee, Portland, Washington, Denver
    SHOULD BE HARD: Miami twice, Chicago twice, Indiana, Houston, Memphis, Brooklyn, San Antonio, Golden State.

    Now, after 45 days, the Raps could be 12 and 10 team by winning all of the "easy" and "even" games and losing all of the "hard" games, but who gives a shit about beating Milwaukee and Portland, really? I think a "sustainable" playoff team is one that can compete with teams who are actually contending for the title this year - pull a win or two out of the likes of Chicago, Houston, Memphis, Brooklyn and Golden State and you've got something worth keeping together.

    It's the difference between an 11-11 team after 45 days with no wins against contenders and an 11-11 team after 45 days with 2-3 wins against contenders (and maybe 1-2 more squeaker losses against contenders). That second team is inconsistent but maybe has the talent to progress to the next level. That first team doesn't and is telling you what its ceiling is.
    Good points. Raptors have a penchant for winning some 'hard games' and losing too many 'easy' or 'even games'. In my view winning the games you should win is more important than winning the 'hard' games. If you can do the former consistently the latter will eventually come.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Wow do you need anymore motivation if your a player?
    @Chr1st1anL

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    I think a "sustainable" playoff team is one that can compete with teams who are actually contending for the title this year - pull a win or two out of the likes of Chicago, Houston, Memphis, Brooklyn and Golden State...
    Well, if this is the case...

    FIRE UP THE TANKS!

    (Although, I should add: I still don't think 45 days will tell you much more than you already know. I think Masai's already made up his mind.)
    Last edited by JimiCliff; Wed Oct 30th, 2013 at 04:46 PM.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post

    Proving themselves a "sustainable" playoff team? What does that even mean? Can you even prove that in 45 days?
    This reminds me of my old job when we'd tell associates that to make partner they needed a "sustainable practice". When asked for specifics, people would ramble on for a few minutes and say nothing much at all. In truth, there really was no standard at all. It was our get out of jail free card. If we didn't want someone in we just told them they didn't have a sustainable practice. It's the "I will buy this car once I am satisfied there are no problems". It's the ultimate out.

    That's why I am somewhat inclined to go with Mess' comment. If this is true, it sounds like the direction has already been decided.

  5. #25
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    Well, if this the case...

    FIRE UP THE TANKS!

    (Although, I should add: I still don't think 45 days will tell you much more than you already know. I think Masai's already made up his mind.)
    Here's the thing: the "contender" teams are all potentially beatable with smart play. Golden State relies on one guy (Bogut) for its defense and can be out-sized. Houston is going to spend this season figuring out how Dwight and Harden work together best and especially in the first half they won't quite know yet. Chicago relies on Derrick Rose and Carlos f'n Boozer to create shots. Memphis has so little perimeter shooting that they signed Mike Miller, who is 36 and spends half the season in a hospital bed, to be their top gunner. Indiana does not score a lot of points and is vulnerable to the three. Brooklyn is old as fuck and can potentially simply be outhustled by a younger, more vigorous team, and they're also relying on one guy (KG) to run their defensive line because their coach doesn't know how yet.

    The Raps are a relatively young and athletic team and their starting lineup is a pretty solid unit - below-average on perimeter shooting, but reasonably good at everything else. If they can put the tools together properly and upgrade the bench, they're potentially a 5-6 seed. But those are two things that are very, very difficult.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Starter Mess's Avatar
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    I think that is partly what he means by a "sustainable" playoff team. If one or more of John Wall, Lebron/Wade, KG/Pierce, Melo get injured and miss time, the (injury-free) Raptors will have a greater shot at a higher playoff ranking. So should MU stand pat because the injury gods were in Toronto's favour for one year? I can see if you're a contendor or even a semi-contender. You have a shot, go for it. But if as a team your ceiling as an overachiever is 5th or 6th, is it worth keeping together?

    Jesus, I don't want them to tank but I must admit it's starting to make a little more sense. But I'm greedy as a fan and consumer. If can get some exciting playoff basketball (read: any) in Toronto I want them now. I don't look forward to re-tooling and watching another 2-3 years of losing basketball just so the Raptors can (intially) get back to being a 6th-8th seed (even if the ceiling is higher the subsequent years). Call me selfish, but choosing to wait 4-5 years to hypothetically have a better chance at a top 4 seed isn't something I want to do.

    But I'm also starting to suspect that all of the statements MU has made since he's been here have been laying the groundwork for trading away most of the assets we have. I guess you can argue it's the logical thing to do and that for a sustainable top 4 seed it's the only way, but I don't have to like it.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    I'm guessing this why all the players are putting "#ProveEm" in their Instagram picks
    @Chr1st1anL

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Superstar Bendit's Avatar
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    I hate such articles/quotes....wtf does it really mean and who tf said it. Is Kelly pretending to be in the know here....or just putting out shit like this on opening day? I think it's bad form (the timing) for the team because they want to come out swinging. I mean we have been debating this ad nauseum in the forum for the summer and if the quote is legit what purpose does it serve to put it out today?
    Disclosure: I am for a team overhaul. But this smells.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic All-Star lilmamba_'s Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I'm guessing this why all the players are putting "#ProveEm" in their Instagram picks
    http://instagram.com/p/gCRTicqhpU/
    http://instagram.com/p/e6QA26KhgD/
    http://instagram.com/p/gGr7gZI463/
    http://instagram.com/p/gE7AUDJ3d_/

    and these i just wanted to throw in cuz ithere fuckin hilarious
    http://instagram.com/p/gGKwrGp3eT/
    http://instagram.com/p/f6pukoOoMM/
    http://instagram.com/p/f3B8gMOoER/
    Last edited by lilmamba_; Wed Oct 30th, 2013 at 05:03 PM.
    What they got to say now? Nothing they can say now. Mobbin' on the low. Winnin' on the low
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    dat Atlantic division dominance

  10. #30
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    I hate such articles/quotes....wtf does it really mean and who tf said it. Is Kelly pretending to be in the know here....or just putting out shit like this on opening day? I think it's bad form (the timing) for the team because they want to come out swinging. I mean we have been debating this ad nauseum in the forum for the summer and if the quote is legit what purpose does it serve to put it out today?
    Disclosure: I am for a team overhaul. But this smells.
    Right! This seems so fishy. Like who the hell is this Kelly person? I've never heard about him or her before. Why would you just decide to put out info like this now. Such bad timing. Also none of the other writers have seemed to have heard about this because if they did I believe they would have put out this information as well. Something doesn't seem right but maybe it's just me. Not that I'm against this notion but it just seems weird.

  11. #31
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I'm guessing this why all the players are putting "#ProveEm" in their Instagram picks
    No doubt the coaching staff is using the idea of tanking as motivation for the players. It's one thing for American sports analysts to disrespect the Raptors, but when their own fans and local media start blatantly asking about and/or requesting the team tanking this season, proving them wrong is definitely a good source of motivation. We either get a good team that beats even the most enthusiastic prediction, or we get a rebuild... win-win in my book.

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  13. #32
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    That article, if it is accurate, makes me absolutely sick. Why bother playing the season if you are going to cut the player's fingers off by Christmas? Why bother watching? It shows a complete lack of respect for the players and the fans.

  14. #33
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Here's the thing: the "contender" teams are all potentially beatable with smart play. Golden State relies on one guy (Bogut) for its defense and can be out-sized. Houston is going to spend this season figuring out how Dwight and Harden work together best and especially in the first half they won't quite know yet. Chicago relies on Derrick Rose and Carlos f'n Boozer to create shots. Memphis has so little perimeter shooting that they signed Mike Miller, who is 36 and spends half the season in a hospital bed, to be their top gunner. Indiana does not score a lot of points and is vulnerable to the three. Brooklyn is old as fuck and can potentially simply be outhustled by a younger, more vigorous team, and they're also relying on one guy (KG) to run their defensive line because their coach doesn't know how yet.

    The Raps are a relatively young and athletic team and their starting lineup is a pretty solid unit - below-average on perimeter shooting, but reasonably good at everything else. If they can put the tools together properly and upgrade the bench, they're potentially a 5-6 seed. But those are two things that are very, very difficult.
    Of course, this is all true. Every team has its weaknesses. (Well, almost every team. Jordan's Bulls and the Shaq/Kobe Lakers were, IMO, weakness-less). But the Raptors have their weaknesses as well, and they're much worse than those mentioned above, and their strengths are nowhere near the strengths of those above...of course, we all know this...

    My point is, I'm not expecting much competition from us against the top teams. More to the point though: what is Masai expecting? And: what does he need to see to keep from dismantling this team?

    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    I think a "sustainable" playoff team is one that can compete with teams who are actually contending for the title this year - pull a win or two out of the likes of Chicago, Houston, Memphis, Brooklyn and Golden State and you've got something worth keeping together.
    I'd go further. I think that anything less than a plus .500 record against the surefire playoff teams means he starts taking the team apart. But if they play plus .500 against them, then he really can't justify a tear down. If they're playing plus .500 against the contenders, I don't think even the most fanatical tankers would want to see this team broken up.

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  16. #34
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote caccia wrote: View Post
    That article, if it is accurate, makes me absolutely sick. Why bother playing the season if you are going to cut the player's fingers off by Christmas? Why bother watching? It shows a complete lack of respect for the players and the fans.
    I don't get this sentiment. Tearing down a roster doesn't bother me at all.

  17. #35
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer Matt52's Avatar
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    Quote caccia wrote: View Post
    That article, if it is accurate, makes me absolutely sick. Why bother playing the season if you are going to cut the player's fingers off by Christmas? Why bother watching? It shows a complete lack of respect for the players and the fans.
    That is one perspective.

    An equal perspective from my chair is why bother playing the season if you are going to likely miss out on the playoffs or get slaughtered in the first round, have a small chance at getting an allstar talent in the 10-16 range of the draft, and have no cap space to hit free agency or trade market. Why bother watching? It shows a complete lack of respect for the future of the franchise.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  18. #36
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    Why wait?

    MU strikes me as a keen evaluator of talent, and I'm sure he knows that the team could conceivably play above their head for half a season. If he doesn't think this is the team or it has to be proven to him first, I think that is already an indictment on the state of current affairs.

    Break it up whenever you get the best deals for Gay, Derozan or Lowry and lets prepare for the draft. I was watching two teams Phily, Phx) last night and both teams are horrible as they are supposed to be this year were much more entertaining than watching the Raps plod to a win against a Celtics team that should have been blown out.

  19. #37
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    So who is this "someone?" Doug Smith? Michael Grange? LOL.

    I guarantee nothing happens in 2 months. This is just all media generated BS.
    Follow me on Twitter - @RRyan22

  20. #38
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    I wonder if the warlord MU scratched a month or two off after seeing them play last night
    @jerboat

  21. #39
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    I wonder if the warlord MU scratched a month or two off after seeing them play last night
    Nah. But I'm sure he'll expect the team to be better...or rather, expect them to be better if they want to stay together and make some kind of playoff run.

  22. #40
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    45 days.... sounds like just long enough to show that any summer improvements by our players are legitimate. How much more value do you get back in trade when you have 20+ games worth of proof that Demar can consistently hit a 3? Or that Lowry is a legit PG when in shape? MU is crafty. The 45 days is all about maximizing the value of our assets.

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