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Thread: Demar and Rudy on the block??

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Default Demar and Rudy on the block??

    http://o.canada.com/sports/rudy-gay-...e-trade-block/

    does anybody have the access to the insider article by Ford? This guy on Canada.com posted Chad Ford's words as: "The Raptors have been trying to find new homes for both Gay and DeRozan in an attempt to move into the top five on the Tank Rank."

    I think it's BS, but i cant tell for sure because i havent read the whole article and i dont know in what context it was said.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Not sure about DeRozan, but there was a piece recently that suggested Ujiri did put out some feelers about Rudy. I can't remember the source though....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter Dino4life's Avatar
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    The Raptors are yet another team that seems to be on the NBA hamster wheel. They've flirted with everything from Tanking to going for it, but haven't stuck with anything long enough to make it work. What they're left with is a solid starting roster that includes a promising young center, Jonas Valanciunas, some athletic wings in their prime -- Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan -- and a tough, energetic point guard in Kyle Lowry. The Raptors have been trying to find new homes for both Gay and DeRozan in an attempt to move into the top five on the Tank Rank. GM Masai Ujiri knows this team's chances of making the playoffs are slim and they need to cut payroll, but the market for players like Gay and DeRozan isn't what it used to be. Toronto may be stuck at the bottom of this list all season.
    I call BS, if we at RR haven't heard about it all summer, I'm not gonna take the word of a guy who only studies the draft.
    You have to remember, that when you read an article, unless it comes with a quote, its just the writer's opinion. Chad Ford's job is to hype up the draft all year long and that's exactly what he's doing.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    NBA experts have been alluding to the availability of Gay, DeRozan and Lowry all offseason. Given the team's cap reality, Lowry's expiring contract, Gay's potential opt-out, DeRozan's perceived overpayment, the DeRozan/Gay redundancy, the team's 10-20 overall standings projection, new executive management, new GM, seemingly lame-duck coach on last year of contract... it's no wonder all the experts and insiders are expecting the Raptors to be in some degree of rebuild mode. It also plays right into MU's "wait and see" approach, since assessing the market value of each player would seem to be a standard part of roster evaluation for any new GM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    One point that should be made in these threads is that the Rudy and Demar situations are entirely different. WIth Rudy, if he tells them that he is opting out and doesn't want to play in Toronto, then you need to move him. If there is mutual interest in him staying, then you need to make a call on a long term commitment for major dollars. There are a lot of variables. Moving Gay doesn't necessarily equate with a tear down or major renovation, it might be necessitated by events and it might not be for picks and scraps.

    With Derozan, he is signed long term and is under team control for 4 years. Moving him is a far different matter as it is ripping out one of the young, under contract, key pieces of the roster. That would signal that something entirely different is coming to Raptorland.

    At the moment, I have no problem believing teams are inquiring about Gay and the Raps are seeing what's out there. The Demar stuff I have little more trouble believing.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    One point that should be made in these threads is that the Rudy and Demar situations are entirely different. WIth Rudy, if he tells them that he is opting out and doesn't want to play in Toronto, then you need to move him. If there is mutual interest in him staying, then you need to make a call on a long term commitment for major dollars. There are a lot of variables. Moving Gay doesn't necessarily equate with a tear down or major renovation, it might be necessitated by events and it might not be for picks and scraps.

    With Derozan, he is signed long term and is under team control for 4 years. Moving him is a far different matter as it is ripping out one of the young, under contract, key pieces of the roster. That would signal that something entirely different is coming to Raptorland.

    At the moment, I have no problem believing teams are inquiring about Gay and the Raps are seeing what's out there. The Demar stuff I have little more trouble believing.
    If there is mutual interest in Gay re-signing, that could be the catalyst for shopping DeRozan. Gay & DeRozan would be making a combined $28.8M next season (roughly half the cap). Combine the salary situation with the fact that there are at least some redundancies in their game (ie: both are primarily scorers, both need the ball in their hands to be at their best, neither is a 3pt threat, neither is a lock-down perimeter defender), and I'd be surprised if both players are here next season. I agree that Gay is probably target #1 to be moved but, if he re-signs, then I think DeRozan's future becomes a little more uncertain. At the very least, I totally understand MU ascertaining the trade market value of both of them.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Mess's Avatar
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    Yeah I imagine MU has been, very discretely, figuring out what he can get for almost every player on the Raptors. I don't think this qualifies as any of them being on the block, though everyone already knows the deal about Rudy, DD and Lowry. Going to have to wait and see. I doubt MU will get any Godfather offers right away. It will take him time to sucker some team in overpaying.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    The dude turned Bargnani into something, I'm sure he can move Gay, Gay is a decent player

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    Raptors Republic All-Star brothersteve's Avatar
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    Every article about trading anybody in Oct or Nov should be viewed as speculative - should only be read for entertainment or as a guide to what could happen if and when - No GMs are shopping players now - doesn't happen. But we still got to write stuff that's interesting before a single meaningful game gets played.....

    "As everyone is aware, Gay can opt out of his contract after this season ... Sometime this season Ujiri is going to address the elephant in the room. Does Gay want to stay in Toronto and will he prove it by either picking up his option for next season or signing an extension? ... However, Ujiri’s wait-and-see approach is the right way to go for now ... Ujiri is hoping for the best that the Raptors are overachieving and Gay wants to stay, but he has to be preparing for every eventuality – it’s his job!"

    Raptors Season: Does Rudy Gay Have To Go?

    And all this stuff about having too much money tied up in 2 players - REALLY $28m in 2 guys - total BS - look at the money lots of teams tie up in 2 or 3 players - its not the amount of money - but you need the right 2 or 3 players.

    Some teams have the entire salary cap in 3 guys - Heat, Nets, Knicks, Lakers. 4 guys - Bulls, keep going..... If anything the Raptors need 2 guys worth/earning more than $28m
    The best Raptors discussion board is at Raptors Republic.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote brothersteve wrote: View Post
    Every article about trading anybody in Oct or Nov should be viewed as speculative - should only be read for entertainment or as a guide to what could happen if and when - No GMs are shopping players now - doesn't happen. But we still got to write stuff that's interesting before a single meaningful game gets played.....

    "As everyone is aware, Gay can opt out of his contract after this season ... Sometime this season Ujiri is going to address the elephant in the room. Does Gay want to stay in Toronto and will he prove it by either picking up his option for next season or signing an extension? ... However, Ujiri’s wait-and-see approach is the right way to go for now ... Ujiri is hoping for the best that the Raptors are overachieving and Gay wants to stay, but he has to be preparing for every eventuality – it’s his job!"

    Raptors Season: Does Rudy Gay Have To Go?

    And all this stuff about having too much money tied up in 2 players - REALLY $28m in 2 guys - total BS - look at the money lots of teams tie up in 2 or 3 players - its not the amount of money - but you need the right 2 or 3 players.

    Some teams have the entire salary cap in 3 guys - Heat, Nets, Knicks, Lakers. 4 guys - Bulls, keep going..... If anything the Raptors need 2 guys worth/earning more than $28m
    C'mon Steve. $28m in two guys is nothing?

    What winning team had $28m in two guys without some all-nba talent? I'll check when I get on a computer.

    5 and 8 years in to the league and they don't have a playoff appearance or win to show, no defensive awards, no individual awards, no Allstate games, no first second third team awards.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    The dude turned Bargnani into something, I'm sure he can move Gay, Gay is a decent player
    Gay is a "decent" player.

    Then Lebron is the God of Gods then.

    I would say Gay is great, but very close to the borderline between great and good. He could be elite if he commits to pushing his game to the next level with good defense, shot efficiency and making his teammates around him better.

    But "decent", its probably a bit of an insult.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    C'mon Steve. $28m in two guys is nothing?

    What winning team had $28m in two guys without some all-nba talent? I'll check when I get on a computer.

    5 and 8 years in to the league and they don't have a playoff appearance or win to show, no defensive awards, no individual awards, no Allstate games, no first second third team awards.
    Lets go through the league with each team's top 2 paid players:

    Atlanta: Millsap and Horford *allstar* ($21.5M)
    Boston: Humprhies *expiring* and Rondo *allstar* ($24M)
    Brooklyn: Johnson *former AS* and Williams *former AS* ($40M)
    Charlotte: Jefferson and Gordon *expiring* ($27M)
    Chicago: Rose *MVP calibre* and Boozer *former AS* ($33M)
    Cleveland: Bynum *possible expiring* and Varejo *possible expiring* ($21M) *Irving AS*
    Dallas: Dirk *AS/MVP* and Marion *epxiring* ($31M)
    Denver: Lawson and McGee ($21M)
    Detroit: Smith and CV *expiring* ($21M)
    Golden State: Bogut and Lee *AS* ($28M)
    Houston: Howard *AS/Defensive POY* and Harden *AS* ($34M)
    Indiana: Hibbert *AS* and Granger *former AS/expiring* ($28M)
    LA Clippers: Paul *All-NBA* and Griffin *AS* ($35M)
    LA Lakers: Kobe *former MVP/AS* and Gasol *former AS* both expiring ($49M)
    Memphis: ZBo *AS* and Gasol *AS/DPOY* ($33M)
    Miami: Bosh *AS* adn James *MVP* ($38M)
    Milwaukee: Butler *expiring* and Mayo ($16M)
    Minnesota: Love *AS* and Pekovic ($27M)
    New Orleans: Gordon and Evans ($26M)
    New York: Amar'e *former AS/current gimp* and Melo *AS* ($43M)
    OKC: Durant *All League* and Westbrook *AS* ($33M)
    Orlando: Hedo and Nelson ($20M) *loaded in rookie deals and picks*
    Philadelphia: Young and Turner ($15.5M)
    Phoenix: Okafor *expiring* and Dragic ($23M)
    Portland: Aldridge *AS* and Batum ($26M)
    Sacramento: Salmons *expiring* and Thornton ($15.5M) *Cousins*
    San Antonio: Duncan (AS/League) and Parker (AS): $22M
    Toronto: Gay and DeRozan ($27.5M)
    Utah: Jefferson and Biedrins *expiring* ($20M)
    Washington: Nene and Gortat ($21M)

    When looking at individual players:
    1) keep in mind that $28M is nearly half the cap. Combine that with the Raptors at the cap with Gay option next year with no starting PG and that is a serious problem when you don't have an all-star anywhere else on the roster.
    2) the Raptors have their top 2 paid players in the easiest position to find talent: the wing. A lot of teams have big money tied up to C because of the premium placed on them or in PG's because of the nature of today's game.

    When looking at it from team perspective:
    1) The Raptors current top 2 paid situation is on par with Charlotte, Denver, Detroit, Milwaukee, New Orleans, Orlando, Philly, Phoenix, Sacramento, Utah, and Washington (not great company).
    2) Of the teams in 1 above, Charlotte, Detroit, Milwaukee, Orlando, Phoenix, and Utah have one or both or their top contracts as an expiring.
    3) Remember Orlando, Philly, Phoeix, and Utah are straight up tanking.
    4) Of the middling teams Toronto appears to be in company with in the east (Charlotte, Detroit, Milwaukee, and Washington) the difference between Toronto and those teams is cap space. They all have $15-$30M in cap space this summer.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Gay is a "decent" player.

    Then Lebron is the God of Gods then.

    I would say Gay is great, but very close to the borderline between great and good. He could be elite if he commits to pushing his game to the next level with good defense, shot efficiency and making his teammates around him better.

    But "decent", its probably a bit of an insult.
    1. last time i checked, lebron WAS the god of gods as far as basketball is concerned.
    2. Rudy Gay is decent. no more, no less.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Lets go through the league with each team's top 2 paid players:

    Brooklyn: Johnson *former AS* and Williams *former AS* ($40M)
    Chicago: Rose *MVP calibre* and Boozer *former AS* ($33M)
    Dallas: Dirk *AS/MVP* and Marion *epxiring* ($31M)
    Golden State: Bogut and Lee *AS* ($28M)
    Houston: Howard *AS/Defensive POY* and Harden *AS* ($34M)
    Indiana: Hibbert *AS* and Granger *former AS/expiring* ($28M)
    LA Clippers: Paul *All-NBA* and Griffin *AS* ($35M)
    LA Lakers: Kobe *former MVP/AS* and Gasol *former AS* both expiring ($49M)
    Memphis: ZBo *AS* and Gasol *AS/DPOY* ($33M)
    Miami: Bosh *AS* adn James *MVP* ($38M)
    New York: Amar'e *former AS/current gimp* and Melo *AS* ($43M)
    OKC: Durant *All League* and Westbrook *AS* ($33M)
    Toronto: Gay and DeRozan ($27.5M)
    Of the 12 teams ahead of Toronto, 9 are legit contenders for the Finals (Nets, Bulls, GS, Hou, Pacers, Clip, Mem, Miami and OKC). The other three are Dallas, Lakers and New York - all "preferred destinations" for UFA's, 2 are recent Champs with aging Superstars at the end of their careers/contracts, and New York has All-NBA Melo and injury derailed Amare. Then the Raps...that's quite a drop-off.

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    Matt - Actually, I think you might both be on the same side here. I took Steve's point to be that shipping assets out b/c $28M is unaffordable is a false argument as a lot of teams in the league do it. What he said was that the Raptors should have $28M invested in players who are worth it. He never says that Rudy and Demar are those guys.

    Your analysis of other teams in the league kind of reinforces his point. The more successful teams in the league have $28M invested (and more in many cases) in their highest paid players.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote pdjjw wrote: View Post
    Actually, I think you might both be on the same side here. I took Steve's point to be that shipping assets out b/c $28M is unaffordable is a false argument as a lot of teams in the league do it. What he said was that the Raptors should have $28M invested in players who are worth it. He never says that Rudy and Demar are those players.

    Your analysis of other teams in the league kind of reinforces his point. The more successful teams in the league have $28M invested (and more in many cases) in their highest paid players.
    Veteran players make a lot of money. Championship contenders, tend to have some vets, but they have to be the right players. Almost every team above the Raps, have an inside-out combo. Brooklyn (2 guards), Memphis (2 bigs) and OKC (2 All-NBA) are the only ones. The Raps are nothing like those teams.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote pdjjw wrote: View Post
    Matt - Actually, I think you might both be on the same side here. I took Steve's point to be that shipping assets out b/c $28M is unaffordable is a false argument as a lot of teams in the league do it. What he said was that the Raptors should have $28M invested in players who are worth it. He never says that Rudy and Demar are those guys.

    Your analysis of other teams in the league kind of reinforces his point. The more successful teams in the league have $28M invested (and more in many cases) in their highest paid players.
    Ahhhhh..... Thank you for point that out. This was Steve's original post:

    And all this stuff about having too much money tied up in 2 players - REALLY $28m in 2 guys - total BS - look at the money lots of teams tie up in 2 or 3 players - its not the amount of money - but you need the right 2 or 3 players.
    I missed that on my phone when I originally read it.

    Thanks for that.

    Sorry, Steve. We're sayign same thing.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
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    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    ...Sorry, Steve. We're saying same thing.
    See! We can all be friends.

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    As a digression from everybody agreeing that Rudy and DeMar are not perhaps the strongest 1-2 investment in the league, as of today Gordon Hayward will be an RFA next summer. I strongly suspect Utah will be looking to move him if they can get a reasonable payout for him (and reasonable for Hayward is going to be fairly hefty).

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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    As a digression from everybody agreeing that Rudy and DeMar are not perhaps the strongest 1-2 investment in the league, as of today Gordon Hayward will be an RFA next summer. I strongly suspect Utah will be looking to move him if they can get a reasonable payout for him (and reasonable for Hayward is going to be fairly hefty).
    I'm not sold on Hayward. There seems to be a lot of hype surrounding him this year (especially in fantasy circles), but other than being a decent player on a poor team, I don't get it.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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