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Future Does Note Bode Well

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  • Future Does Note Bode Well

    Enjoyed the game last night but from my point of view unless some major changes are made in our offensive scheme this team is going no where. I have said it before and now say it again (I will get tired of saying it sooner or later) that big men are next to worthless to this team no matter what the name of the big man. There is no apparent attempt to involve them offensively whatsoever as far as I can see. Are plays run for them? It will take less than 5 fingers for me to count the number of times that happened last night. Maybe I can't count well.

    It seems to me the only use the offense has for them is to set blocks for the outside shooters and stay out of the way so those shooters can go one on one. I know JV ought to be able to score if you get him the ball and I know from observation watching the Pacers for the past 3 seasons that Tyler is capable of putting up good numbers even if many of those are free throws. But for either guy you got to go to them in the post which I have not seen happen yet in preseason or in last night's game. Trouble is coming soon unless there is some change. Boston is no doubt one of the 4 poorest teams in the league. Best ditch this offense for one more like Indiana.

  • #2
    I have no clue about how much of any coach's "style" is dictated by the GM. Do teams "showcase" certain players? Are the Raptors "showcasing" DeMar and Rudy, preparatory to an early - midseason trade effort?

    On the other hand, JV seemed to bobble the ball a few times...maybe because he wasn't actually expecting to get the passes? :-)

    Tyler could be the highest scorer on the second squad but I doubt is Casey will draw up any plays for him since it seems most of his points seem to come off missed attempts or from simply scrambling to grab a possession. I think it would be hard to transition from that to a pre-drawn play. I expect to see some chemistry develop between Fields and Hansbrough. Landry is smart enough to get him the ball at a pretty steady clip. And if Teams key in on that and start helping down low, Ross may get some open lanes to drive through and receive some Fields passes.

    I think JV starts getting some plays as the season progresses. I thought Boston was crowding him a bit last night and his cuts and rolls to the basket didn't leave him very open most times.

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    • #3
      Indiana65 wrote: View Post
      Enjoyed the game last night but from my point of view unless some major changes are made in our offensive scheme this team is going no where. I have said it before and now say it again (I will get tired of saying it sooner or later) that big men are next to worthless to this team no matter what the name of the big man. There is no apparent attempt to involve them offensively whatsoever as far as I can see. Are plays run for them? It will take less than 5 fingers for me to count the number of times that happened last night. Maybe I can't count well.

      It seems to me the only use the offense has for them is to set blocks for the outside shooters and stay out of the way so those shooters can go one on one. I know JV ought to be able to score if you get him the ball and I know from observation watching the Pacers for the past 3 seasons that Tyler is capable of putting up good numbers even if many of those are free throws. But for either guy you got to go to them in the post which I have not seen happen yet in preseason or in last night's game. Trouble is coming soon unless there is some change. Boston is no doubt one of the 4 poorest teams in the league. Best ditch this offense for one more like Indiana.
      Caveat before I even say anything - its game one.

      Personally I think the bigs showed how valuable they were last night. 12 offensive rebounds between them (19 total vs 7 for Boston) were the reason the Raptors didn't lose last night.

      That said, I get the sentiment in general, particularily with Jonas. This was/is one of the concerns with this team - how do you get him consistent touches while the team has 2 high usage players, and at the very least an average usage PG? Answer: You don't. There is only so much ball to go around.

      Hansborough I'm not so interested in running the ball through or into him... I think he's best served just doing what he does best.

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      • #4
        Puffer wrote: View Post
        Do teams "showcase" certain players? Are the Raptors "showcasing" DeMar and Rudy, preparatory to an early - midseason trade effort?
        If that's the case, Raptors basketball will not be pretty to watch this year..
        Twitter - @thekid_it

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        • #5
          For all the talk about getting JV touches, he looks far from polished in the post. His predictable running right-handed hook is basically the only move he has in his arsenal.

          If Casey is trying to win games, I can understand not drawing up many plays for Jonas. He's nowhere near ready to be a focal point on offense yet.

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          • #6
            isaacthompson wrote: View Post
            If that's the case, Raptors basketball will not be pretty to watch this year..
            It's only 1 game so it's early to leap to conclusions - but I'm going to anyway. The key to this franchise evolving into a contender is Jonas becoming a great NBA player - both offensively and defensively. To develop that offensive game - he has to get touches in the post and plays run for him. Right now, the offensive sets are terrible - partly due to scheme - and partly due to personnel. This franchise needs to find an offensive mind to get some flow to the offense and some plays for the bigs. Similarly, the team needs a playmaking point guard who can execute that offense, and at least 1 less high-usage, mid-range shooting, possession devouring wing. I like Lowry, Demar, and Gay individually - despite the flaws in their games - but I don't think all 3 of them playing together is going to work - and it's certainly not going to work in service of the goal of developing Jonas. Lowry and either Demar or Rudy have to go - and a pass-first PG and a more efficient wing must take their place.

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            • #7
              Saw that post-entry pump fake again a couple times...

              Not

              Working
              Twitter - @thekid_it

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              • #8
                PEOPLE STOP JUMPING ON JVS DICK!

                hes a great young prospect but saying things "like O he wasnt expecting the pass so he fumbled it" is just goddam crazy hes making a lot of turnovers with his butter fingers sometimes stop giving him a free pass when he does something stupid. If you are part of the starting 5 you have to expect a pass JV is just screwing up... one of the silliest excuses ever.

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                • #9
                  Nilanka wrote: View Post
                  For all the talk about getting JV touches, he looks far from polished in the post. His predictable running right-handed hook is basically the only move he has in his arsenal.

                  If Casey is trying to win games, I can understand not drawing up many plays for Jonas. He's nowhere near ready to be a focal point on offense yet.
                  All about getting the ball in the right location. That is partly on Jonas, that is partly on the passer.

                  I agree Jonas is rarely going to get plays drawn up for him but when he is open, give him the ball! lol

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                  • #10
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    All about getting the ball in the right location. That is partly on Jonas, that is partly on the passer.

                    I agree Jonas is rarely going to get plays drawn up for him but when he is open, give him the ball! lol
                    Lowry, Gay and DeRozan all had a lot of sloppy entry passes last night, that either got knocked away or were outright turnovers. The Raps can's afford to let off the gas against any opponent - they simply aren't good enough to. I really hope part of this alleged culture change is a much higher degree of accountability and the development of a killer instinct; truly good teams have both.

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                    • #11
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      All about getting the ball in the right location. That is partly on Jonas, that is partly on the passer.

                      I agree Jonas is rarely going to get plays drawn up for him but when he is open, give him the ball! lol
                      When he's open, for sure, get him the ball.

                      But I don't think he's skilled enough offensively (yet) to dump him the ball, and be like, "get us 2 points big guy!". He's a long way from a reliable post scorer like a David West, Zach Randolph, Tim Duncan, Carlos Boozer, etc.

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                      • #12
                        Nilanka wrote: View Post
                        When he's open, for sure, get him the ball.

                        But I don't think he's skilled enough offensively (yet) to dump him the ball, and be like, "get us 2 points big guy!". He's a long way from a reliable post scorer like a David West, Zach Randolph, Tim Duncan, Carlos Boozer, etc.
                        I agree.

                        Much like becoming a consistent defensive stopper, he has a ways to go before he is a consistent offensive threat. The talent is there though... and more importantly so is the desire.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Indiana65 wrote: View Post
                          Enjoyed the game last night but from my point of view unless some major changes are made in our offensive scheme this team is going no where. I have said it before and now say it again (I will get tired of saying it sooner or later) that big men are next to worthless to this team no matter what the name of the big man. There is no apparent attempt to involve them offensively whatsoever as far as I can see. Are plays run for them? It will take less than 5 fingers for me to count the number of times that happened last night. Maybe I can't count well.

                          It seems to me the only use the offense has for them is to set blocks for the outside shooters and stay out of the way so those shooters can go one on one. I know JV ought to be able to score if you get him the ball and I know from observation watching the Pacers for the past 3 seasons that Tyler is capable of putting up good numbers even if many of those are free throws. But for either guy you got to go to them in the post which I have not seen happen yet in preseason or in last night's game. Trouble is coming soon unless there is some change. Boston is no doubt one of the 4 poorest teams in the league. Best ditch this offense for one more like Indiana.
                          I'll agree and disagree. One of the main reasons Toronto won last night was cause Val and Hansbrough had 10 offensive rebounds between them. The three bigs (Val, Hansbrough, Amir) were 13-22 from the field. Their combined defense also led to a pile of Boston turnovers. So, I would say that the bigs are incredibly valuable to this team and were the key component in last night's win.

                          To your larger point, I agree the bigs need more touches and opportunities. People get caught up in focusing solely on Val in this respect but Amir and Hansbrough also need some love. Especially Amir who is a very good passer.

                          The one discouraging thing to me from last night (and, as Craiger said, SMALL SAMPLE SIZE CAVEAT) is that Casey seems to be employing the same failed offensive philosophy from last year. I don't think it utilizes this group of players to the max and I think it is going to be a huge problem going forward unless Derozan and Gay shoot the lights out.

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                          • #14
                            slaw wrote: View Post
                            I'll agree and disagree. One of the main reasons Toronto won last night was cause Val and Hansbrough had 10 offensive rebounds between them. The three bigs (Val, Hansbrough, Amir) were 13-22 from the field. Their combined defense also led to a pile of Boston turnovers. So, I would say that the bigs are incredibly valuable to this team and were the key component in last night's win.

                            To your larger point, I agree the bigs need more touches and opportunities. People get caught up in focusing solely on Val in this respect but Amir and Hansbrough also need some love. Especially Amir who is a very good passer.

                            The one discouraging thing to me from last night (and, as Craiger said, SMALL SAMPLE SIZE CAVEAT) is that Casey seems to be employing the same failed offensive philosophy from last year. I don't think it utilizes this group of players to the max and I think it is going to be a huge problem going forward unless Derozan and Gay shoot the lights out.
                            I completely agree, and I'm one of the most vocal JV fans. In general the amount of times he's looked off sickens me because having ANY big looked off in some of the spots he gets to is a basketball crime. And it's true they look off Amir and Tyler so much. Not as big a deal with Amir from a shot attempt perspective, who mostly helps facilitate/clean up the O. But Tyler, like Jonas, is a guy who should get some touches, even just minimal ones, because sometimes he's just very obviously in the right spot.

                            Sigh...Someone needs to smack Casey upside the head with a new playbook

                            *And they rarely run things to really free up the big man. Sometimes the wing will run a screen down low, but not nearly enough. And I feel like they definitely don't run enough big-for-big screens. Most often, the way Jonas/Tyler are expected to get position is just to outhustle his man to the other side of the block. This is making it as hard as possible, and it makes them waste extra energy, and they never get rewarded when they do establish position.
                            Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Oct 31, 2013, 11:33 AM.

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                            • #15
                              Nilanka wrote: View Post
                              For all the talk about getting JV touches, he looks far from polished in the post. His predictable running right-handed hook is basically the only move he has in his arsenal.

                              If Casey is trying to win games, I can understand not drawing up many plays for Jonas. He's nowhere near ready to be a focal point on offense yet.
                              I think you are absolutely right on this, and personally I just don't see the 'skilled' offensive game from (like a Duncan or Gasol) not the overpowering game (Shaq or Dwight). Thats not a bad thing, but its also likely means he won't be a focal point or primary guy (or whatever other cliche one prefers) on offense

                              BUT, I also think that, on a minute for minute basis, nothing beats real-time experience. Not only for him (and if the team wants him to be a big part of the future they will want some sort of reliable post game out of him), but also for the organization to know what they do or do not have in him.

                              To me this is just another sore spot in aiming for the playoffs, whether its temporary or not. At best not giving Jonas more usage on offense is missing the opportunity to give the team more info. on Jonas, and less opportunity for Jonas to hit his stride as early as possible.

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