Future Does Note Bode Well

[JimiCliff]

Toronto fans over value their players madly. Happens why you have a perrenial basement team, you have to learn to love average players.

I hate to admit it myself, but watching JV, he looks like nothing more than an average at best big in the NBA. He looks awkward shooting, he looks unskilled putting it on the floor, and his finish around the basket with hooks looks average at best. Even his open dunks look as if he lacks any real lift.

Its hard to be honest about the talent on your team, but honestly, Toronto is a very low skill team. The only guy I actually think is a player sometimes is Derozan, and thats only because he busts it into the paint.... and that happens...well, not every night.

Casey did an awesome job last night, Toronto is tanking, and they are looking to unload a few guys too. future is grim, but will have an upside.

He's still very young.

Just remember:

- When playing amongst players his own age, he's always dominated his competition.

- Last year, he had the all-time highest TS% for a rookie centre. Again: all-time.

- Big men who are truly passionate about playing the game don't grow on trees.

- Big men who can get to the line at a good clip and hit nearly 80% of their free throws certainly don't grow on trees.

[tkfu]

Toronto fans over value their players madly. Happens why you have a perrenial basement team, you have to learn to love average players.

Its hard to be honest about the talent on your team, but honestly, Toronto is a very low skill team.

And that, incidentally, is why fans love to blame the coach, and why they're generally wrong when they do it.

[mcHAPPY]

And that, incidentally, is why fans love to blame the coach, and why they're generally wrong when they do it.

I think Casey deserves some share of the blame. 2rookie nba head coaches not only out coached him on game decisions but they came in to training camp with over hauled rosters and implementing their own sets and game plans in the last month. Casey has been working with this chore since February

[tkfu]

I think Casey deserves some share of the blame. 2rookie nba head coaches not only out coached him on game decisions but they came in to training camp with over hauled rosters and implementing their own sets and game plans in the last month. Casey has been working with this chore since February

I just don't think it's a very easy task to judge a coach. I mean, what are the criteria? I think it's kind of contradictory to think, at the same time:

1. Coaching is a difficult, skilled task that has a large impact on team outcomes,

and,

2. A fan can tell whether a coach is making good or bad decisions without having access to 98% of the information the coach has.

So you can't really criticize individual decisions without implicitly claiming, essentially, that any idiot off the street (or out of the stands) could coach an NBA basketball team. But if you look at it at a macro level, and try to see the impact of coaches on overall team performance, you find that most coaches are not statistically differentiable from each other. So that pretty much throws outcome analysis out the window, too. If we want to believe that coaches have an effect, we're gonna have to accept that it's in ways we as fans simply aren't qualified to judge.

[mcHAPPY]

I just don't think it's a very easy task to judge a coach. I mean, what are the criteria? I think it's kind of contradictory to think, at the same time:

1. Coaching is a difficult, skilled task that has a large impact on team outcomes,

and,

2. A fan can tell whether a coach is making good or bad decisions without having access to 98% of the information the coach has.

So you can't really criticize individual decisions without implicitly claiming, essentially, that any idiot off the street (or out of the stands) could coach an NBA basketball team. But if you look at it at a macro level, and try to see the impact of coaches on overall team performance, you find that most coaches are not statistically differentiable from each other. So that pretty much throws outcome analysis out the window, too. If we want to believe that coaches have an effect, we're gonna have to accept that it's in ways we as fans simply aren't qualified to judge.

I think the bold is a leap. No one, certainly not me, is implying any idiot of the street could coach a team.

Here is what I do know:

1) the job of a head coach is to develop his players talent
2) the job of a head coach is to maximize the talents of his players
3) the job of a head coach is to put his players in a position to be successful.

Casey is failing at all three as an observer of this team, in my opinion.

Coaching does have an impact on the game. The very fact Atlanta's players were put in situations where they could be successful and each player was on the same page of the other players for the majority of the game shows me that the preparation and teaching being done by both Boston and Atlanta coaching staff is superior to that of Toronto. The fact that Casey has been coaching this team for 2 full seasons and has had this core since February and they still look lost on both sides of the ball is ridiculous, in my opinion. Either Casey is not communicating the team game plan and strategy or the players are not executing - both reflect on the coach in my opinion.

[planetmars]

I am writing this Saturday morning after the Hawks game last evening. I just got off the phone with Direct TV cancelling my NBA League Pass for the season. I followed Hansbrough to Toronto from Indiana via League Pass enjoying his game but I had no idea how dysfunctional this team is. There is no way he can succeed there with the type of game they play. Everything negative about this team I have read including the front page lead article on this site this morning is correct. It is not a team; right now it is 5 guys out on the floor having no idea how to play together or what to do other than put up a bad shot--that is if you can even get the ball in your hands from the guy who already has it and has plans for it that do not include you at all.

Thus is the life of a Raptor fan.. we have had some very awful seasons yet we come out full force to support the team. I am optimistic that MU is the right GM for this team.. but this season will be a wash. I do suspect MU will blow this team up. Tyler will probably get moved by Dec 15 as he will be a popular player with his salary and his resume. I can see him being packaged in a trade with someone like Lowry or Gay.

[psrs1]

Lowry, Gay and DeRozan all had a lot of sloppy entry passes last night, that either got knocked away or were outright turnovers. The Raps can's afford to let off the gas against any opponent - they simply aren't good enough to. I really hope part of this alleged culture change is a much higher degree of accountability and the development of a killer instinct; truly good teams have both.

Raps clearly lack killer instinct.

[psrs1]

I am writing this Saturday morning after the Hawks game last evening. I just got off the phone with Direct TV cancelling my NBA League Pass for the season. I followed Hansbrough to Toronto from Indiana via League Pass enjoying his game but I had no idea how dysfunctional this team is. There is no way he can succeed there with the type of game they play. Everything negative about this team I have read including the front page lead article on this site this morning is correct. It is not a team; right now it is 5 guys out on the floor having no idea how to play together or what to do other than put up a bad shot--that is if you can even get the ball in your hands from the guy who already has it and has plans for it that do not include you at all.

Sadly many on this site could provide a more cohesive structure than that under Casey. We need a friggen drill seargent as head coach to get these guys in line.

[tkfu]

I think the bold is a leap. No one, certainly not me, is implying any idiot of the street could coach a team.

Here is what I do know:

1) the job of a head coach is to develop his players talent
2) the job of a head coach is to maximize the talents of his players
3) the job of a head coach is to put his players in a position to be successful.

Casey is failing at all three as an observer of this team, in my opinion.

Coaching does have an impact on the game. The very fact Atlanta's players were put in situations where they could be successful and each player was on the same page of the other players for the majority of the game shows me that the preparation and teaching being done by both Boston and Atlanta coaching staff is superior to that of Toronto. The fact that Casey has been coaching this team for 2 full seasons and has had this core since February and they still look lost on both sides of the ball is ridiculous, in my opinion. Either Casey is not communicating the team game plan and strategy or the players are not executing - both reflect on the coach in my opinion.

The hidden assumption here is that these things would be better with another coach. Most of the outcomes in a basketball game are determined by the players, not the coach. But we as fans like and identify with the players more than the coaches, so we'd rather blame the coach when things go wrong. But how do you objectively evaluate a coach's impact? Well, he's not on the floor, so you've got to evaluate him through the players, through the action on the court: is the team performing better, worse, or about the same as it "should"? Personally, I think they've been doing about as well as I expected them to, or perhaps a little bit better. But given how bad in general everyone is at predicting the NBA (even the best predictors are off by 6-7 wins per season on average), I don't think I can say that with any confidence, especially after a 3-game sample.

So, regarding your 3 points:

1) DeRozan, Fields, JV, Ross, Amir, and Augustin have all been better than they were last season. Is that because of the coach, or the players?
2) What exactly does this mean? One way I read it it's the same as #1, the other way I read it it's the same as #3.
3) How do you tell whether the players are being "put in a position" by the coach, or if they're deciding for themselves, or if they're being "put in a position" to succeed or fail by their teammates? Hell, how do you tell whether they were put into a position to succeed, but then failed, or if they were put into a position to fail? Rudy got a bunch of great looks at the rim in the Atlanta game, and didn't shoot a ton of jumpers, but he fucked up all his at-rim opportunities. Was he put into a position to succeed? Again here, we're looking at outcomes, comparing them to what we wish they were, and blaming the coach if our hopes aren't realized. That just isn't particularly rational.

[mcHAPPY]

The hidden assumption here is that these things would be better with another coach. Most of the outcomes in a basketball game are determined by the players, not the coach. But we as fans like and identify with the players more than the coaches, so we'd rather blame the coach when things go wrong. But how do you objectively evaluate a coach's impact? Well, he's not on the floor, so you've got to evaluate him through the players, through the action on the court: is the team performing better, worse, or about the same as it "should"? Personally, I think they've been doing about as well as I expected them to, or perhaps a little bit better. But given how bad in general everyone is at predicting the NBA (even the best predictors are off by 6-7 wins per season on average), I don't think I can say that with any confidence, especially after a 3-game sample.

So, regarding your 3 points:

1) DeRozan, Fields, JV, Ross, Amir, and Augustin have all been better than they were last season. Is that because of the coach, or the players?
2) What exactly does this mean? One way I read it it's the same as #1, the other way I read it it's the same as #3.
3) How do you tell whether the players are being "put in a position" by the coach, or if they're deciding for themselves, or if they're being "put in a position" to succeed or fail by their teammates? Hell, how do you tell whether they were put into a position to succeed, but then failed, or if they were put into a position to fail? Rudy got a bunch of great looks at the rim in the Atlanta game, and didn't shoot a ton of jumpers, but he fucked up all his at-rim opportunities. Was he put into a position to succeed? Again here, we're looking at outcomes, comparing them to what we wish they were, and blaming the coach if our hopes aren't realized. That just isn't particularly rational.

My points make sense if you watch more basketball than the raptors. Watch other teams around the league.

[tkfu]

My points make sense if you watch more basketball than the raptors. Watch other teams around the league.

Jesus Christ, that has to be the most condescending, intellectually bankrupt response possible. I watch a ton of basketball, thank you very much.

[mcHAPPY]

Jesus Christ, that has to be the most condescending, intellectually bankrupt response possible. I watch a ton of basketball, thank you very much.

Look back at how exchange started. I said Casey deserves part of the blame. I'm not pinning everything on him and if I gave that impression I do apologize as that seems to be your perspective through this exchange. Players have to do what is asked of them but at some point if they don't get it you have to question how the information is being relayed. Basic example, I could yell and scream for a player to get the rebound but if I have not taught him to box out should I expect him to be successful? I'm not talking about Casey taking responsibility for guys missing lay ups. I am talking about the plays and systems being ran or not ran leading to shit shots being the bulk of the offence. It looks like beer league rec ball out there most of the time. The Milwaukee game was certainly better at times notably when Gay was off the floor. He yanks gay in 4th for his ball stopping ways and puts him back in with message received. Why doesn't he do that with JV on D? That is the impact of the coach.

But if you watch around the league then you should be familiar with coaches around the league who adapt to the players they have rather than fit square pegs in round holes. You would also see systems run on both sides of the ball with players where they are suppose to be.

Coaches, the systems they implement, and the teaching they do matter. It is why some guys thrive under some coaches and disappear under others. Personalities, communication and mutual respect matter as well. Why does one coach get fired after no success and the new coach goes on to make the same roster a winner? (Pj carlesimo and Scott brooks thunder 2009/10 come immediately to mind).

[tkfu]

If you were a little more self-aware and a little less arrogant, you might consider the possibility that you're forcing narratives on team performance that have alternate explanations.

[mcHAPPY]

If you were a little more self-aware and a little less arrogant, you might consider the possibility that you're forcing narratives on team performance that have alternate explanations.

I will keep that in mind.

[JimiCliff]

It looks like beer league rec ball out there most of the time.

Does anyone know any hackers? Could we get this on the homepage of the Raps' website?