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Thread: Casey: I think DeMar DeRozan can become that superstar

  1. #61
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Wait, are you saying Boogie is worse than DeMar on Defense? (falls off chair). There's a reason why he's on all my fantasy teams. I think you're missing the big picture -- he alters shots, is good for 2 steals a game, excellent rebounder, gets a couple blocks a game... I suspect that you do not watch Boogie Cousins play...or look at his stats., or listen to the boat-load of analysts who praise the kid...
    Boogie's all stats, no D, and that's a pretty close to unanimous consensus around the NBA. He's an absolute disaster guarding the pick and roll, and Sacto's always worse on D when he's on the floor because of it. If you don't believe me, check out this piece by Zach Lowe--it includes a thorough breakdown, including screencaps, showing exactly why he's so terrible.

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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    #1 not an awful argument. This is the first game of the season...
    Fair points.

    Perhaps Casey thinks the players should be far along in their maturation that should know how to get through tough stretches already though. Or perhaps you're right and Casey just isn't great at recognizing the situation and how his players will react to such situations.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What did DD show last year other than being able to score points at an average rate? The players you gave were extremely efficient, multi-dimensional scorers and were multi-dimensional players. DD not so much..... yet. Comparing DD to Bargnani is never a good footing for a discussion.
    He also showed that he was a very good at getting to the free throw line and making free throws.....

    7th in the NBA in free throws made (tied with Dwight Howard). Thats a good thing right? Getting teams in foul trouble. Getting easy baskets at the line. You know there are some things he's pretty good at! Imagine if he got more calls/respect from the refs??

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    He also showed that he was a very good at getting to the free throw line and making free throws.....

    7th in the NBA in free throws made (tied with Dwight Howard). Thats a good thing right? Getting teams in foul trouble. Getting easy baskets at the line. You know there are some things he's pretty good at! Imagine if he got more calls/respect from the refs??
    I guess the difference between DeRozan and players such as Billups, Joe Johnson, Steve Nash, Dirk, etc. is not as great as I thought if it all comes down to points and free throws.

    Fortunately, or unfortunately, there is much more to the game (and hence discussion of talent) which you don't seem to be grasping in my posts. This likely a result of poorly delivered and worded posts on my part.
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  6. #65
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    Durant just doesn't get the respect the he deserves from US media the refs, the league, etc, the way Vince and even Bosh got. He did improved his game over the course of his career. He drove the lane, he developed a midrange game, he gets to the foul line, he's improving his post game as well and he can hit the occasional 3. If he gets calls like Durant, Harden, Curry, etc, he would be an all-star. EVEN Friggin 2k14 disrespects him!!! He should be rate at least an 80, but they rated him 77 and lower than Kyle lowry!!!

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Hahahaha. Your still bringing that ish? Fine EXTRAPOLATED but not as is. Your confusing what a player could've done (per 36) with what a player did do (actual stats). Further to your point - Tyler Hansborough won't play 36 mins per game because he's a BENCH player. Therefore, who cares how much he COULD get if he played 36 mins per game? See the difference in our points?? Mine is REAL and yours is estimated/inflated/extrapolated.
    Lots of GMs tend to care about it. Mostly NBA stars play at least 36 minutes per game.

    Gerald Wallace, rookie season, playing only eight minutes, averaged 3.2 points per game.

    Tracy McGrady, rookie season, seven points in the 18.4 minutes he played per game.

    Kevin Love’s 11 pts and nine boards as a rookie.

    If we look for example at Wallace’s averages per 36 minutes, we would see 14.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 2.3 assists and 1.6 steals – numbers nearly identical to those of his career.

    T-Mac’s rookie stats extrapolated out to 13.8 points, 8.2 rebounds, three assists 1.5 steals and 1.9 blocks. Although those numbers don’t resemble the type of production McGrady accomplished throughout his career, they show a glimpse into an 18 year old kid’s raw potential.

    Love's per 36 of 15.8 pts and 12.9 reb averaged per 36 are far more like what we see today.

    You don't have to like the stats category, but you can't wholly dismiss it just because you feel like it.

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    Quote Rapzilla wrote: View Post
    What do you guys make of this?
    Keep going 6 for 19 and nobody needs to guard you. lol.

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  10. #68
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I guess the difference between DeRozan and players such as Billups, Joe Johnson, Steve Nash, Dirk, etc. is not as great as I thought if it all comes down to points and free throws.

    Fortunately, or unfortunately, there is much more to the game (and hence discussion of talent) which you don't seem to be grasping in my posts. This likely a result of poorly delivered and worded posts on my part.
    Not at all! I totally understand your point of view (come on we've debated for over a year now). I know exactly where you stand. I still really respect your opinion - i just prefer the positive Matt52

    Look, I dont blame you either. You don't think Demar is very talented, in fact, you think he's pretty average at best. I agree that there are areas where he needs to improve upon. However, I do think he's pretty good in other areas (scoring, mid-range, free throws, attracting double teams, now he can absorb more contact...) Whether you'd like to admit it or not, Demar saw a lot of double teams before Rudy came. Naturally, teams don't double team scrubs......We both agree that he still has to grow as a player. Where we disagree is that i think he can and you don't. It's really that simple isn't it?

    Trust me, you've given plenty of reasons/data/stats to back up your points.....i'm just an optimist (like you used to be). You really used to be one of my favourite posters on here, if i'm being honest.

    Right now - You like to put more weight on Demar's flaws, while i acknowledge them, I do see value in having a player like him. I suspect you feel burnt by Bargs and you don't want that to happen with Demar. I get it - trust me.

    I don't blame you for being skeptical.....just don't lose your optimism! Demar is still a player on my team.....but what else would you expect from a fan? lol

  11. #69
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    Quote 2KJ wrote: View Post
    Durant just doesn't get the respect the he deserves from US media the refs, the league, etc, the way Vince and even Bosh got. He did improved his game over the course of his career. He drove the lane, he developed a midrange game, he gets to the foul line, he's improving his post game as well and he can hit the occasional 3. If he gets calls like Durant, Harden, Curry, etc, he would be an all-star. EVEN Friggin 2k14 disrespects him!!! He should be rate at least an 80, but they rated him 77 and lower than Kyle lowry!!!
    I think you meant Demar

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  13. #70
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Lots of GMs tend to care about it. Mostly NBA stars play at least 36 minutes per game.

    Gerald Wallace, rookie season, playing only eight minutes, averaged 3.2 points per game.

    Tracy McGrady, rookie season, seven points in the 18.4 minutes he played per game.

    Kevin Love’s 11 pts and nine boards as a rookie.

    If we look for example at Wallace’s averages per 36 minutes, we would see 14.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 2.3 assists and 1.6 steals – numbers nearly identical to those of his career.

    T-Mac’s rookie stats extrapolated out to 13.8 points, 8.2 rebounds, three assists 1.5 steals and 1.9 blocks. Although those numbers don’t resemble the type of production McGrady accomplished throughout his career, they show a glimpse into an 18 year old kid’s raw potential.

    Love's per 36 of 15.8 pts and 12.9 reb averaged per 36 are far more like what we see today.

    You don't have to like the stats category, but you can't wholly dismiss it just because you feel like it.
    We can go back and forth....... Dude, I gave you a real stat and your comeback was to show me Tyler Hansborough's per 36 stat!? Who cares!? I won't argue that PER 36 doesn't have some role in projecting talent (especially players who don't play).......BUT to compare it to someone who ACTUALLY plays the minutes is not going to fly in my books. There are other factors such as foul trouble, durability, conditioning, etc. that will affect whether a player even plays 36 mins. I prefer to take the stats as they are, not what they could be. No disrepect.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What did DD show last year other than being able to score points at an average rate? The players you gave were extremely efficient, multi-dimensional scorers and were multi-dimensional players. DD not so much..... yet. Comparing DD to Bargnani is never a good footing for a discussion.
    Hey, I just said don't scoff at the idea, not that I see him becoming a star. Stats? Getting to the line and PPG? Increase in assists? And yes he does lack efficiency -- that's the VERY legitimate other side of the argument.

    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    Boogie's all stats, no D, and that's a pretty close to unanimous consensus around the NBA. He's an absolute disaster guarding the pick and roll, and Sacto's always worse on D when he's on the floor because of it. If you don't believe me, check out this piece by Zach Lowe--it includes a thorough breakdown, including screencaps, showing exactly why he's so terrible.
    Fine. I'm still a fan of Boogie Cousins and I'm confused with the idea that DeMar may be a better defender even if it is by process of elimination...

    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    Fair points.

    Perhaps Casey thinks the players should be far along in their maturation that should know how to get through tough stretches already though. Or perhaps you're right and Casey just isn't great at recognizing the situation and how his players will react to such situations.
    Luckily, Masai has to figure this one out, and not us.

  15. #72
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    Demar can reach AllStar status at some point in his career, but not 'superstar' level. Physically, he could be superstar level, but he just doesn't have the mentality and skills to match it. His average ball handling skills is limiting his ability to create his own offense, making it too predictable at times. Superstars can turn the tide and will their team to victory- Demar has yet to show that he can do this. It's just something intangible and can't really be taught. You can see it by the way he carries himself on the court. When he doesn't get the calls he wants or the D is putting a lot of pressure on him, he looks lost at times.

    Meanwhile, you have guys like kobe, lbj, wade, and melo, they always carry this air of confidence when they have the ball (though i guess you can attribute some of that to the fact that they know the refs will give them the benefit of doubt). Kobe would probably say to himself "I don't care, i'll shoot over 2 defenders if i have to". Wade- "I'm going to slash, dunk on someone and then step over them like nobody's business." Melo - "Pull up 3 or go home". LBJ- "Dont matter if i pass or attack, the ball turns to gold when i touch it".

  16. #73
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Lots of GMs tend to care about it. Mostly NBA stars play at least 36 minutes per game.

    Gerald Wallace, rookie season, playing only eight minutes, averaged 3.2 points per game.

    Tracy McGrady, rookie season, seven points in the 18.4 minutes he played per game.

    Kevin Loveís 11 pts and nine boards as a rookie.

    If we look for example at Wallaceís averages per 36 minutes, we would see 14.5 points, 7.5 rebounds, 2.3 assists and 1.6 steals Ė numbers nearly identical to those of his career.

    T-Macís rookie stats extrapolated out to 13.8 points, 8.2 rebounds, three assists 1.5 steals and 1.9 blocks. Although those numbers donít resemble the type of production McGrady accomplished throughout his career, they show a glimpse into an 18 year old kidís raw potential.

    Love's per 36 of 15.8 pts and 12.9 reb averaged per 36 are far more like what we see today.

    You don't have to like the stats category, but you can't wholly dismiss it just because you feel like it.
    Every stat has it's place. The problem is they are often used, both purposely and unwittingly, in misguided comparisons. For every Wallace/Love you can find, there are 10 Per 36 that I can find of bench players that don't come close to what they produce when they're starters, playing more minutes, against starters, not subs.

    That's why I personally dismiss comparisons when people include starters and bench guys stats in some sort of ranking, but using Per 36 #s of a bench guy playing 15 minutes vs mostly subs, and a guy playing 35 minutes against mostly starters is like comparing apples to steaks. When you used the Per 36 "ranking" to dump DD down to 45th or something like that, how many of those were bench guys who play far fewer minutes against far lesser opponents?

  17. #74
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    Dont want to get too excited. But DeMar looked good tonight. Like, unreal good. The improvements from last year to this year is uncanny. Ball handling and shooting is remarkably improved.
    Follow me on Twitter - @11_RRyan

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    DD sure did make Casey look good tonight...
    @Chr1st1anL

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  20. #76
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    After tonight's performance, i'm stashing Derozan into the (nearly) untouchable category. We haven't had a guard that was literally unguardable, since Carter. And unlike Carter and Gay, you can't question Demar's drive and work ethic. Also, I don't think I'd be able to follow the Raptors anymore If Amir was traded/let-go, so I consider him untouchable.

    Demar. Amir, Jonas everyone else is fair=game.
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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    After tonight's performance, i'm stashing Derozan into the (nearly) untouchable category. We haven't had a guard that was literally unguardable, since Carter. And unlike Carter and Gay, you can't question Demar's drive and work ethic.
    We still don't have a guard that's "unguardable." DeMar has improved a lot and I don't want to trade him either (he's a Toronto-style grinder and we all have a soft spot for him because of that), but his worst enemy on offense is still his tendency to hesitate on the dribble instead of go for the drive.

  22. #78
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    Gay played like ass. DeMar was going Kobe tonight

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  24. #79
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I can think of only player who reached superstar status after 5 years in the league: Steve Nash.

    That type of talent shows itself immediately. Can you think of any other player?
    Demar's discipline and hard work are very impressive and it's what has made him a good player and IMO that's what he'll remain. Nash blossomed late but I don't think he can be considered a 'superstar'. A player who comes to mind is Tracy McGrady although his late superstardom was due to lack of opportunity in his initial years(2nd fiddle to VC).
    Attitude Is A Choice.

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I think you meant Demar
    Yep, my bad LOL.

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