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If JV in untouchable, why not run plays for him?

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  • #16



    Continuing to live up to the Bill Cartwright comparison.


    Random thought on Casey/JV and why development will be stunted:

    HE IS NOT TYSON CHANDLER

    Casey was brought in to develop a team around a Dirk-lite.
    Chandler was to Dirk like JV was suppose to be like Bargnani.
    Unfortunately, CHandler was in the league for 12 years before he became the breakout player he has become in the last 3 years - in a contract year no less.
    JV needs a lot of experience to have a hope of becoming the defensive anchor Chandler is.
    However, JV is a much better offensive player.

    Those saying JV has no post game are confusing positioning and opportunity with ability. He has shown ability to go middle, back to his left hand, hit a jumper, drive, and hit his free throws.

    This team and roster still smells like Colangelo.
    I can't wait for shake up to really start anew.

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    • #17
      NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
      Buddy has got a point. Once Jonas starts adjusting a little better, he'll start getting the minutes and trust. And that my friends is when the Raptors will be beasting
      It is a catch 22 or a chicken and egg riddle

      If he learns he'll get the minutes.
      If he doesn't get the minutes he'll never learn.

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      • #18
        Matt52 wrote: View Post
        It is a catch 22 or a chicken and egg riddle

        If he learns he'll get the minutes.
        If he doesn't get the minutes he'll never learn.
        Here's how you eat the egg without destroying the chicken. Come up with a couple of options for JV when he gets the ball in the post, so he has an option or two. Then he won't feel like he has got to go to the basket no matter what. Maybe they have worked on this in practice, and maybe JV is just too dense to remember, but I doubt it.

        Here's another option. Work with JV to develop a couple of alternative moves when the D counters is first initiative.

        This is on the coaching staff.

        Comment


        • #19
          Raptorsss wrote: View Post
          Maybe, you guys should actually listen to what coach Casey is saying when he talks about Jonas. People complaining about coach Casey, are probably upset that he yanked Ross after Mayo got consecutive 3's and then Fields shut him down. Ross and Jonas aren't prime time ready yet and Casey is coaching for win now mode.
          Some of us are listening, we just don't agree.
          In my case, I feel a lot of his reasons for not using Valanciunas are due to his lack of creativity as a coach.
          That, and that he is constantly on the defensive, matching up to other teams instead of imposing our strategy on them.

          I don't believe we can win without JV.
          Not in any meaningful way.
          And frankly, our offense is not even close to where it should be in terms of utilizing him efficiently.
          Not even close.
          We need him playing, it's worth it.

          Nobody on the court for crunch-time of last night's game were prime time ready.
          It was horrible.

          I say let him bobble the ball.
          Let him bobble it right out the door if he can't learn to catch it, but no more coddling.
          Put him out there, and learn how to use him, Coach.

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          • #20
            Matt52 wrote: View Post
            It is a catch 22 or a chicken and egg riddle

            If he learns he'll get the minutes.
            If he doesn't get the minutes he'll never learn.
            Now, Hibbert doesn't have a diverse offensive set of moves, but If I'm remembering his development correctly, it's similar to Jonas (Brought along slowly and not made to sink or swim on a bad team). But, Jonas is much further along than where Hibbert was his first two years. Casey is talking maybe December, when he can trust Jonas to be the lone big on the floor anchoring the defense at the end of games, not next year or later.

            And the lack of touches for Jonas, has as much to do if not more with the other starters he plays with.
            -"You can’t run from me. I mean, my heart don’t bleed Kool-Aid."
            -"“I ain’t no diva! I don’t have no blond hair, red hair. I’m Reggie Evans.”

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            • #21
              Shrub wrote: View Post
              Like we hear time and again, superstars are drafted, not traded.
              Except for James Harden, Tracy McGrady, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Shaquille O'Neal, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Carmelo Anthony, LeBron James...

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              • #22
                Raptorsss wrote: View Post
                Now, Hibbert doesn't have a diverse offensive set of moves, but If I'm remembering his development correctly, it's similar to Jonas (Brought along slowly and not made to sink or swim on a bad team). But, Jonas is much further along than where Hibbert was his first two years. Casey is talking maybe December, when he can trust Jonas to be the lone big on the floor anchoring the defense at the end of games, not next year or later.

                And the lack of touches for Jonas, has as much to do if not more with the other starters he plays with.
                Hibbert was also stunted in his 2nd year by a coach who refused to use him effectively (Jim O'Brien).

                Bold 1: Agreed... on the offensive side. JV still has a ways to go on D but again it is opportunity.

                Bold 2: I hope you are right. I have not read that anywhere. Do you have a quote or is that your opinion?

                Bold 3: Oh absolutely no question. This team is still reaping the rewards of Colangelo Constrution Ltd.

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                • #23
                  tkfu wrote: View Post
                  Except for James Harden, Tracy McGrady, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Shaquille O'Neal, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Carmelo Anthony, LeBron James...
                  Haha yeeeah, was wondering if somebody was going to call me on that.
                  LeBron wasn't traded though...

                  Now I need to elaborate, *sigh*.
                  Those are exceptions, and positions that teams were forced into, either by the CBA or player demands.
                  In most cases, it was the superstar stating their desire to leave, and the team deciding they had better cash in while they can.
                  I don't expect anybody is demanding to come over here, and we're running the risk they don't re-sign if it's a straight-up trade.

                  But I'm sure you already saw my point and just wanted to disagree, no?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Shrub wrote: View Post
                    Haha yeeeah, was wondering if somebody was going to call me on that.
                    LeBron wasn't traded though...

                    Now I need to elaborate, *sigh*.
                    Those are exceptions, and positions that teams were forced into, either by the CBA or player demands.
                    In most cases, it was the superstar stating their desire to leave, and the team deciding they had better cash in while they can.
                    I don't expect anybody is demanding to come over here, and we're running the risk they don't re-sign if it's a straight-up trade.

                    But I'm sure you already saw my point and just wanted to disagree, no?
                    Not exactly, no. (And I'll give you LeBron, even though he was, technically, traded.)

                    I think the point itself is substantially wrong. Superstars aren't traded under normal circumstances, sure--but there are abnormal circumstances all the time. So the real question is, are you more likely to find success with a superstar that you draft (and specifically, a superstar you draft near the top of the lottery), or through other means? Well, wanna take a guess at how many top 3 picks have won a championship with the team that drafted them? (I'm only counting since the 1985 draft, because that's when the current lottery was put into place.)

                    Five. One of them was Darko Milicic, in his second year with the Pistons. Two more were Sean Elliott and Jason Kidd, and they both did it after being traded away, then eventually re-acquired near the ends of their respective careers, so they don't really count. The other two? Tim Duncan and David Robinson.

                    Who are the championship contenders this year? Miami got their team in free agency, Brooklyn got theirs with Russian oil money, the Clippers and Rockets got theirs through asset accumulation and opportunistic trades, Indiana drafted well in the low lottery, signed a mid-level star free agent, and made smart trades for complementary pieces, New York traded and signed in free agency, with some smart drafting in the late first round, the Warriors got a potential superstar in the middle of the lottery, the Grizz traded for a guy nobody thought could play anymore and developed Marc Gasol. Out of all the contenders, only OKC built through the draft.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      tkfu wrote: View Post
                      So the real question is, are you more likely to find success with a superstar that you draft (and specifically, a superstar you draft near the top of the lottery), or through other means?

                      This is a fairly arbitrary condition. Expand it to the entire first round, and the list superstars drafted by their own team who won a championship with them grows to:

                      Wade, Dirk, Pierce, Rondo, Kobe, Parker

                      which happens to cover every team that's won since 1999.

                      And then you can go back further with Jordan, Pippen, Olajuwan, Thomas, Dumars, Magic, Bird, McHale...

                      It actually seems literally impossible to win a championship without at least one superstar that you yourself have drafted...
                      "Stop eating your sushi."
                      "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                      "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                      - Jack Armstrong

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                      • #26
                        tkfu wrote: View Post
                        Not exactly, no. (And I'll give you LeBron, even though he was, technically, traded.)

                        I think the point itself is substantially wrong. Superstars aren't traded under normal circumstances, sure--but there are abnormal circumstances all the time. So the real question is, are you more likely to find success with a superstar that you draft (and specifically, a superstar you draft near the top of the lottery), or through other means? Well, wanna take a guess at how many top 3 picks have won a championship with the team that drafted them? (I'm only counting since the 1985 draft, because that's when the current lottery was put into place.)

                        Five. One of them was Darko Milicic, in his second year with the Pistons. Two more were Sean Elliott and Jason Kidd, and they both did it after being traded away, then eventually re-acquired near the ends of their respective careers, so they don't really count. The other two? Tim Duncan and David Robinson.

                        Who are the championship contenders this year? Miami got their team in free agency, Brooklyn got theirs with Russian oil money, the Clippers and Rockets got theirs through asset accumulation and opportunistic trades, Indiana drafted well in the low lottery, signed a mid-level star free agent, and made smart trades for complementary pieces, New York traded and signed in free agency, with some smart drafting in the late first round, the Warriors got a potential superstar in the middle of the lottery, the Grizz traded for a guy nobody thought could play anymore and developed Marc Gasol. Out of all the contenders, only OKC built through the draft.
                        Bold 1: Why top 3? If you open it up to teams who drafted their star players, the results are a little more interesting don't think? Dirk was a draft night trade and #9; same with Kobe at #13. Wade was #5 and Paul Pierce #10 - you don't get LBJ/Bosh without Wade nor Garnett/Allen without either. So if we alter your narrative we just included 10 more of the 28 championships.

                        And why 1985? I know it is because that is when the lottery came in but prior to that the top talent was still found at the top of the draft regardless how it was determined who selected. If you are going to include championships won after 1985, shouldn't you include star players drafted prior to 1985? Michael Jordan drafted 3rd and Hakeem 2nd in 1984 accounts for 8 championships. Pistons of 80's was built through draft with Thomas taken at #2 - that is 2 more. Lakers drafted Magic in 1979 at #1 - that is 3 more championships after 1985. So again altering the narrative that includes another 13 championships.

                        Including the Spurs as you did previous gives us another 4 championships.

                        So now we're up to 27 of 28 championships accounted for through a lottery draft pick and 20 of 27 through a top 5 pick. The only odd ball in the championship group since 1985 is the 2004 Pistons.




                        As for this year, you listed the following as championship contenders:
                        Miami: they drafted DWade. There is no big 3 without Wade drafted in Miami.
                        Brooklyn: actually drafted Lopez and traded draft picks and expirings as the main pieces to acquire their talent (Williams, Johnson, Pierce, Garnett)
                        Clippers: first overall pick Griffin leads to Paul who was obtained by trading draft picks and former lottery picks (Aminu, Gordon).
                        Rockets: prospects drafted, draft picks, and expring led to Harden. There is no Howard without Harden.
                        Indiana: draft picks
                        New York: Since Donnie Walsh left, what a mess. Great example of what not to do.
                        Warriors: drafted Thompson, Curry, Barnes - kind of important to their success right now no?
                        Grizz: Conley #4 and you nailed the rest.
                        OKC: draft - got me.

                        All are enjoying their success as a direct or indirect result of the draft.


                        Here is the reality:

                        Of the last 300 All-NBA team selections, only 30 (10 percent) involved players that arrived to their teams as free agents. The number pales in comparison to the amount of All-NBA teamers acquired via trade (74 players, 24.6 percent) or draft (196, 65.3).

                        http://hoopshype.com/articles/sierra...to-their-teams
                        If you want to include the assets used to acquire all-NBA talent, the draft is likely pushing 90% for all-NBA talent acquisition. The reality is draft picks or prospects (usually drafted high) are the foundation of any All-NBA talent acquisition.

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                        • #27
                          Right now JV needs to get stronger and smarter to get his touches a lot closer to the block. He's still learning how to play against NBA starting 5's but he'll get there. He also needs to work on his passing as much as the rest of the Raptors need to work on their cutting (Fields excluded).
                          Two beer away from being two beers away.

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                          • #28
                            I feel valanciunas was better last year at establishing post position and backing down his man (remember the washington game), wonder if it's a conditioning issue.

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                            • #29
                              I skimmed a few posts towards the end of this thread so maybe I missed it, but has nobody mentioned that they could be working on showcasing other players to work better trades? If JV is the one untouchable piece, than he's the one that needs the fewest touches at a time when a lot of player movement is expected. That being said, I'd still love to see a few plays run for him beyond the first quarter.

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                              • #30
                                To the OP, it could simply be the difference in opinion between management and coaches.

                                Just because Ujiri thinks Jonas is the man, doesn't necessarily mean Casey agrees.

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