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Thread: If JV in untouchable, why not run plays for him?

  1. #21
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    Quote Shrub wrote: View Post
    Like we hear time and again, superstars are drafted, not traded.
    Except for James Harden, Tracy McGrady, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Shaquille O'Neal, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Carmelo Anthony, LeBron James...

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    Now, Hibbert doesn't have a diverse offensive set of moves, but If I'm remembering his development correctly, it's similar to Jonas (Brought along slowly and not made to sink or swim on a bad team). But, Jonas is much further along than where Hibbert was his first two years. Casey is talking maybe December, when he can trust Jonas to be the lone big on the floor anchoring the defense at the end of games, not next year or later.

    And the lack of touches for Jonas, has as much to do if not more with the other starters he plays with.
    Hibbert was also stunted in his 2nd year by a coach who refused to use him effectively (Jim O'Brien).

    Bold 1: Agreed... on the offensive side. JV still has a ways to go on D but again it is opportunity.

    Bold 2: I hope you are right. I have not read that anywhere. Do you have a quote or is that your opinion?

    Bold 3: Oh absolutely no question. This team is still reaping the rewards of Colangelo Constrution Ltd.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Starter Shrub's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    Except for James Harden, Tracy McGrady, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Shaquille O'Neal, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Carmelo Anthony, LeBron James...
    Haha yeeeah, was wondering if somebody was going to call me on that.
    LeBron wasn't traded though...

    Now I need to elaborate, *sigh*.
    Those are exceptions, and positions that teams were forced into, either by the CBA or player demands.
    In most cases, it was the superstar stating their desire to leave, and the team deciding they had better cash in while they can.
    I don't expect anybody is demanding to come over here, and we're running the risk they don't re-sign if it's a straight-up trade.

    But I'm sure you already saw my point and just wanted to disagree, no?

  4. #24
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    Quote Shrub wrote: View Post
    Haha yeeeah, was wondering if somebody was going to call me on that.
    LeBron wasn't traded though...

    Now I need to elaborate, *sigh*.
    Those are exceptions, and positions that teams were forced into, either by the CBA or player demands.
    In most cases, it was the superstar stating their desire to leave, and the team deciding they had better cash in while they can.
    I don't expect anybody is demanding to come over here, and we're running the risk they don't re-sign if it's a straight-up trade.

    But I'm sure you already saw my point and just wanted to disagree, no?
    Not exactly, no. (And I'll give you LeBron, even though he was, technically, traded.)

    I think the point itself is substantially wrong. Superstars aren't traded under normal circumstances, sure--but there are abnormal circumstances all the time. So the real question is, are you more likely to find success with a superstar that you draft (and specifically, a superstar you draft near the top of the lottery), or through other means? Well, wanna take a guess at how many top 3 picks have won a championship with the team that drafted them? (I'm only counting since the 1985 draft, because that's when the current lottery was put into place.)

    Five. One of them was Darko Milicic, in his second year with the Pistons. Two more were Sean Elliott and Jason Kidd, and they both did it after being traded away, then eventually re-acquired near the ends of their respective careers, so they don't really count. The other two? Tim Duncan and David Robinson.

    Who are the championship contenders this year? Miami got their team in free agency, Brooklyn got theirs with Russian oil money, the Clippers and Rockets got theirs through asset accumulation and opportunistic trades, Indiana drafted well in the low lottery, signed a mid-level star free agent, and made smart trades for complementary pieces, New York traded and signed in free agency, with some smart drafting in the late first round, the Warriors got a potential superstar in the middle of the lottery, the Grizz traded for a guy nobody thought could play anymore and developed Marc Gasol. Out of all the contenders, only OKC built through the draft.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    So the real question is, are you more likely to find success with a superstar that you draft (and specifically, a superstar you draft near the top of the lottery), or through other means?

    This is a fairly arbitrary condition. Expand it to the entire first round, and the list superstars drafted by their own team who won a championship with them grows to:

    Wade, Dirk, Pierce, Rondo, Kobe, Parker

    which happens to cover every team that's won since 1999.

    And then you can go back further with Jordan, Pippen, Olajuwan, Thomas, Dumars, Magic, Bird, McHale...

    It actually seems literally impossible to win a championship without at least one superstar that you yourself have drafted...

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote tkfu wrote: View Post
    Not exactly, no. (And I'll give you LeBron, even though he was, technically, traded.)

    I think the point itself is substantially wrong. Superstars aren't traded under normal circumstances, sure--but there are abnormal circumstances all the time. So the real question is, are you more likely to find success with a superstar that you draft (and specifically, a superstar you draft near the top of the lottery), or through other means? Well, wanna take a guess at how many top 3 picks have won a championship with the team that drafted them? (I'm only counting since the 1985 draft, because that's when the current lottery was put into place.)

    Five. One of them was Darko Milicic, in his second year with the Pistons. Two more were Sean Elliott and Jason Kidd, and they both did it after being traded away, then eventually re-acquired near the ends of their respective careers, so they don't really count. The other two? Tim Duncan and David Robinson.

    Who are the championship contenders this year? Miami got their team in free agency, Brooklyn got theirs with Russian oil money, the Clippers and Rockets got theirs through asset accumulation and opportunistic trades, Indiana drafted well in the low lottery, signed a mid-level star free agent, and made smart trades for complementary pieces, New York traded and signed in free agency, with some smart drafting in the late first round, the Warriors got a potential superstar in the middle of the lottery, the Grizz traded for a guy nobody thought could play anymore and developed Marc Gasol. Out of all the contenders, only OKC built through the draft.
    Bold 1: Why top 3? If you open it up to teams who drafted their star players, the results are a little more interesting don't think? Dirk was a draft night trade and #9; same with Kobe at #13. Wade was #5 and Paul Pierce #10 - you don't get LBJ/Bosh without Wade nor Garnett/Allen without either. So if we alter your narrative we just included 10 more of the 28 championships.

    And why 1985? I know it is because that is when the lottery came in but prior to that the top talent was still found at the top of the draft regardless how it was determined who selected. If you are going to include championships won after 1985, shouldn't you include star players drafted prior to 1985? Michael Jordan drafted 3rd and Hakeem 2nd in 1984 accounts for 8 championships. Pistons of 80's was built through draft with Thomas taken at #2 - that is 2 more. Lakers drafted Magic in 1979 at #1 - that is 3 more championships after 1985. So again altering the narrative that includes another 13 championships.

    Including the Spurs as you did previous gives us another 4 championships.

    So now we're up to 27 of 28 championships accounted for through a lottery draft pick and 20 of 27 through a top 5 pick. The only odd ball in the championship group since 1985 is the 2004 Pistons.




    As for this year, you listed the following as championship contenders:
    Miami: they drafted DWade. There is no big 3 without Wade drafted in Miami.
    Brooklyn: actually drafted Lopez and traded draft picks and expirings as the main pieces to acquire their talent (Williams, Johnson, Pierce, Garnett)
    Clippers: first overall pick Griffin leads to Paul who was obtained by trading draft picks and former lottery picks (Aminu, Gordon).
    Rockets: prospects drafted, draft picks, and expring led to Harden. There is no Howard without Harden.
    Indiana: draft picks
    New York: Since Donnie Walsh left, what a mess. Great example of what not to do.
    Warriors: drafted Thompson, Curry, Barnes - kind of important to their success right now no?
    Grizz: Conley #4 and you nailed the rest.
    OKC: draft - got me.

    All are enjoying their success as a direct or indirect result of the draft.


    Here is the reality:

    Of the last 300 All-NBA team selections, only 30 (10 percent) involved players that arrived to their teams as free agents. The number pales in comparison to the amount of All-NBA teamers acquired via trade (74 players, 24.6 percent) or draft (196, 65.3).

    http://hoopshype.com/articles/sierra...to-their-teams
    If you want to include the assets used to acquire all-NBA talent, the draft is likely pushing 90% for all-NBA talent acquisition. The reality is draft picks or prospects (usually drafted high) are the foundation of any All-NBA talent acquisition.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  8. #27
    Raptors Republic Starter Mess's Avatar
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    Right now JV needs to get stronger and smarter to get his touches a lot closer to the block. He's still learning how to play against NBA starting 5's but he'll get there. He also needs to work on his passing as much as the rest of the Raptors need to work on their cutting (Fields excluded).

  9. #28
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    I feel valanciunas was better last year at establishing post position and backing down his man (remember the washington game), wonder if it's a conditioning issue.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie big red's Avatar
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    I skimmed a few posts towards the end of this thread so maybe I missed it, but has nobody mentioned that they could be working on showcasing other players to work better trades? If JV is the one untouchable piece, than he's the one that needs the fewest touches at a time when a lot of player movement is expected. That being said, I'd still love to see a few plays run for him beyond the first quarter.

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  12. #30
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    To the OP, it could simply be the difference in opinion between management and coaches.

    Just because Ujiri thinks Jonas is the man, doesn't necessarily mean Casey agrees.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  13. #31
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Few things here, as mentioned above, there could be some showcasing happening. Also, JV is all about potential, he hasn't looked that great all the time so he won't see the ball, BUT that I feel is more on his mates than on the coach. don't rule out the fact that there is simply no controlling Rudy Gay or Kyle Lowry. rudy ain't giving up shots, and Lowry ain't looking for other peoples shots. So unless it was Shaq down there calling for the rock, it ain't going there, ever.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    I don't agree with your assessment of Chandler. His offensive numbers improved when the Bulls dumped him on New Orleans and he became the business end of Chris Paul pick and rolls. He was given up on due to injury, and Dallas helped him get his mojo back, but he's essentially remained the same player going back to the beginning. Chicago just didn't have anyone to run the pnr with him. They'd drafted Jay Williams a couple years earlier to be their pg, but a traffic accident ended his career. There was no justification for the Bulls to prefer Ben Wallace to Chandler, as Bill Simmons pointed out at the time -- not that there's anything wrong with Wallace, in fact that kind of beefy interior defender is exactly what the Raptors have needed for so many year.
    I don't recall chandler having an offensive game outside of lobs and recipient of dishes on cp3 drives.

  15. #33
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    You call 6 shots per game an "offensive game"? Tyson Chandler and players like him don't need an offensive game. He fills a role that is crucial to winning. He's that rarity in NBA basketball, a player that doesn't need the ball to affect the game's outcome.
    That is kind of my point.

    Right now JV is getting those 6 shots - except he is getting them on the offensive glass and post up to start game.

    Chandler is not JV; JV is not Chandler. The 2012-13 Raptors are not the 2010-11 Mavericks.

    It was my opinion Casey is using him/treating him like Chandler when he is not that dominant defensive presence at this time and he can contribute so much more on the offensive end.

    Again JV is nowhere near the defensive impact Chandler is currently... nor was Chandler the defensive impact he is now in his 2nd year either.

    JV has to adapt, learn, and grow but I think Casey should be doing the same thing to maximize JV in game situations.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  17. #34
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    It's another one of the drawbacks of having one foot in win now mode and one foot in youth development mode.

    Casey is coaching for his job right now so he's rightfully trying to win every game possible. Does dumping the ball down into Jonas 15 times a game or letting him play through his share of mistakes on the defensive end do that? No, probably not. Should he be getting those opportunities for the benefit of himself and the franchise moving forward? Absolutely yes. The same concept applies to Ross and Acy, although to a lesser extent.

    Broken record time: The primes of the team's most important pieces do not line up at all. And beyond that, I don't see how Jonas will be able to reach his full potential with the current team's make up (iso shooters on each wing, a shot happy PG, coach that gives him short leash)... and yet most people who want this team to stay the course list Jonas becoming a dominant centre as their number one reason why this squad can reach the next level. It just doesn't make sense.

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  19. #35
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    How quickly we forget what coddling a 7 foot tall lottery pick gets you.

    Frankly, JV isnt playing well and is most likely being held accountable. In three games where he should have been able to dominate inside, he was getting pushed off his spots much too easily by undersized MORE EXPERIENCED bigs. And this is before we take into consideration the matchup issues he provided on the other end of the floor. Considering he is supposed to be a mobile athletic big his close outs were pretty lax.

    If a big man wants touches in the post, hes got to earn them, carve out a spot on the low block, seal off your man and then if the wings look you off, you talk to coach who has probably already noticed whats going on.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Found this stat interesting...
    Quote NBA.com wrote:
    JV has attempted 14 shots in 25 first-quarter minutes, but just seven in 40 minutes after the first quarter.

  21. #37
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Bold 1: Why top 3? If you open it up to teams who drafted their star players, the results are a little more interesting don't think? Dirk was a draft night trade and #9; same with Kobe at #13. Wade was #5 and Paul Pierce #10 - you don't get LBJ/Bosh without Wade nor Garnett/Allen without either. So if we alter your narrative we just included 10 more of the 28 championships.

    And why 1985? I know it is because that is when the lottery came in but prior to that the top talent was still found at the top of the draft regardless how it was determined who selected. If you are going to include championships won after 1985, shouldn't you include star players drafted prior to 1985? Michael Jordan drafted 3rd and Hakeem 2nd in 1984 accounts for 8 championships. Pistons of 80's was built through draft with Thomas taken at #2 - that is 2 more. Lakers drafted Magic in 1979 at #1 - that is 3 more championships after 1985. So again altering the narrative that includes another 13 championships.

    Including the Spurs as you did previous gives us another 4 championships.

    So now we're up to 27 of 28 championships accounted for through a lottery draft pick and 20 of 27 through a top 5 pick. The only odd ball in the championship group since 1985 is the 2004 Pistons.




    As for this year, you listed the following as championship contenders:
    Miami: they drafted DWade. There is no big 3 without Wade drafted in Miami.
    Brooklyn: actually drafted Lopez and traded draft picks and expirings as the main pieces to acquire their talent (Williams, Johnson, Pierce, Garnett)
    Clippers: first overall pick Griffin leads to Paul who was obtained by trading draft picks and former lottery picks (Aminu, Gordon).
    Rockets: prospects drafted, draft picks, and expring led to Harden. There is no Howard without Harden.
    Indiana: draft picks
    New York: Since Donnie Walsh left, what a mess. Great example of what not to do.
    Warriors: drafted Thompson, Curry, Barnes - kind of important to their success right now no?
    Grizz: Conley #4 and you nailed the rest.
    OKC: draft - got me.

    All are enjoying their success as a direct or indirect result of the draft.


    Here is the reality:



    If you want to include the assets used to acquire all-NBA talent, the draft is likely pushing 90% for all-NBA talent acquisition. The reality is draft picks or prospects (usually drafted high) are the foundation of any All-NBA talent acquisition.
    LOL. Directly or indirectly through the draft? Talk about broadening the scope. Save for very few cases, ALL players enter the NBA through the draft, so obviously every transaction will be directly or indirectly connected to the draft, no?

    That is some serious weasel language there. Lawyer or politician grade. LOL.

  22. #38
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    re: If JV is untouchable, why not run plays for him?

    Because there's 3-4 guys that need to be traded and if everything runs through JV, then those 3-4 guys will never get traded.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  23. #39
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    re: If JV is untouchable, why not run plays for him?

    Because there's 3-4 guys that need to be traded and if everything runs through JV, then those 3-4 guys will never get traded.
    Is the goal to win or trade and tank?

  24. #40
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    Quote Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
    I don't get this Untouchable status thing. If someone is untouchable, why would plays not be called for that person? Are we doing Barg all over again before that player truly prove something? I mean DD has been carrying the team on his back since pre season. He has worked hard to try to improve. Now an entire team is tradable? This early in the season? How are they to play their best and care about Toronto knowing that they are not really welcome long time? Yuit saying. I still think, like I did last year, that Casey is the problem. We'll of
    Course along with BC. You have all these offensive specialists but Casey still has the final say and we know how that works out.

    JV is good. But as of now, he is no Drummond. Who by the way, completely aired a free throw last night. Not even close. But anyway, let JV earn his place on the untraceable list. I think that by putting him on the untouchable list and him alone, that will only creat turmoil in the locker room. Try a new coach and see what happens. Then blow it up if it doesn't work. But I truly believe it will.

    Just saying!
    In agreement. Casey needs to go big not small in the fourth.

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