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Thread: If JV in untouchable, why not run plays for him?

  1. #41
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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Is the goal to win or trade and tank?
    Houston has shown that it is possible to win and at the same time acquire elite talent, without obvious tanking. In the past 10 years the Rockets have only 1 season under .500 (just barely). They have mainly used savvy trades to acquire draft assets from OTHER teams (like the Raptors), as well as free agency (Lin, Asik, Howard). The Harden trade was a brilliant case of having the foresight to accumulate the assets (while remaining competitive) and then being opportunistic in a trade scenario. Getting Howard, was again, opportunistic, in that when Dwight was in Orlando he was pursued hard by Houston, but showed no interest. In one short season, the whole landscape changed completely (i.e. bad experience with Kobe and D'Antoni, combined with Houston picking up Harden) and all of sudden Houston was competitive. Again, without tanking or as some would call it - the mediocrity treadmill. And please don't say that Houston is one of the preferred big market destinations for free agents. Until the Harden trade, definitely not.

  2. #42
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Houston has shown that it is possible to win and at the same time acquire elite talent, without obvious tanking. In the past 10 years the Rockets have only 1 season under .500 (just barely). They have mainly used savvy trades to acquire draft assets from OTHER teams (like the Raptors), as well as free agency (Lin, Asik, Howard). The Harden trade was a brilliant case of having the foresight to accumulate the assets (while remaining competitive) and then being opportunistic in a trade scenario. Getting Howard, was again, opportunistic, in that when Dwight was in Orlando he was pursued hard by Houston, but showed no interest. In one short season, the whole landscape changed completely (i.e. bad experience with Kobe and D'Antoni, combined with Houston picking up Harden) and all of sudden Houston was competitive. Again, without tanking or as some would call it - the mediocrity treadmill. And please don't say that Houston is one of the preferred big market destinations for free agents. Until the Harden trade, definitely not.
    Houston had cap space and assets to work with.

    Toronto at this point in time has neither.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    Maybe, you guys should actually listen to what coach Casey is saying when he talks about Jonas. When everyone was saying that he'll have a breakout year after Summer League, they should remember that he was always the biggest player on the floor. Casey was going to use him on offense, the same as last year since the kid has almost 0 post moves.

    Look, if you are struggling to get deep position in the post, have one post move (jump right hook), bobbling passes obviously his offense isn't ready yet. He is also getting lost a little too much on defense. Expect the team, to be finishing most games at least early on in the season with small ball line-ups.

    People complaining about coach Casey, are probably upset that he yanked Ross after Mayo got consecutive 3's and then Fields shut him down. Ross and Jonas aren't prime time ready yet and Casey is coaching for win now mode.
    +1 (the bold) - JV and Ross are not ready for the minutes that posters are expecting them to play. Please be patient with JV as he will take a bit longer than most posters on here expect. I fear that many posters are unrealistic and expecting too much from him. JV WILL get abused by more experienced centers. Its just the way things go....he will get better year after year. Geez - for someone just starting his second year, we are putting him on some high pedestal. He hasn't done ANYTHING so far in the NBA to warrant this pedestal. He's VERY young and has A LOT of potential.....Just relax and be patient.

    He WILL eventually EARN his minutes if he's who we think he could be.

  4. #44
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    This is a fairly arbitrary condition. Expand it to the entire first round, and the list superstars drafted by their own team who won a championship with them grows to:

    Wade, Dirk, Pierce, Rondo, Kobe, Parker

    which happens to cover every team that's won since 1999.

    And then you can go back further with Jordan, Pippen, Olajuwan, Thomas, Dumars, Magic, Bird, McHale...

    It actually seems literally impossible to win a championship without at least one superstar that you yourself have drafted...
    Kobe was actually drafted by the charlotte hornets and traded to the Lakers

  5. #45
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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    In agreement. Casey needs to go big not small in the fourth.
    You do realize that the biggest reason we won last game, is that Casey forced Drew to match his small ball line-up where the Raptors had the obvious advantage. Did you not witness our inability to cover Pachulia and Ilyasova? Who didn't come back in the game when we went small. That it is much easier to drive to the basket and draw fouls when you don't have a big clogging up the lane. Casey out-coached Drew and we won.

    Now, not to repeat myself when it comes to Casey and Valanciunas. Please, watch the end of game media scrum, if you haven't already.
    -"You canít run from me. I mean, my heart donít bleed Kool-Aid."
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  6. #46
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That is kind of my point.

    Right now JV is getting those 6 shots - except he is getting them on the offensive glass and post up to start game.

    Chandler is not JV; JV is not Chandler. The 2012-13 Raptors are not the 2010-11 Mavericks.

    It was my opinion Casey is using him/treating him like Chandler when he is not that dominant defensive presence at this time and he can contribute so much more on the offensive end.

    Again JV is nowhere near the defensive impact Chandler is currently... nor was Chandler the defensive impact he is now in his 2nd year either.

    JV has to adapt, learn, and grow but I think Casey should be doing the same thing to maximize JV in game situations.
    JV is a few games into his 2nd year. If he's the player we all think he can/will be, his time will come. SO FAR (outside of summer league) he's done nothing to suggest he should be be getting special treatment. He needs to WORK HARD for his minutes and i think he will.

  7. #47
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Kobe was actually drafted by the charlotte hornets and traded to the Lakers
    And Rondo was drafted by the Suns.
    -"You canít run from me. I mean, my heart donít bleed Kool-Aid."
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  8. #48
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    +1 (the bold) - JV and Ross are not ready for the minutes that posters are expecting them to play. Please be patient with JV as he will take a bit longer than most posters on here expect. I fear that many posters are unrealistic and expecting too much from him. JV WILL get abused by more experienced centers. Its just the way things go....he will get better year after year. Geez - for someone just starting his second year, we are putting him on some high pedestal. He hasn't done ANYTHING so far in the NBA to warrant this pedestal. He's VERY young and has A LOT of potential.....Just relax and be patient.

    He WILL eventually EARN his minutes if he's who we think he could be.
    If this franchise is to go anywhere it is due to JVs growth.

    I call b.s. On being patient. For all those who were oohing and ahhhing about the end of season last year where Rudy and dd went ham and Raptors went 8-1, JV was a huge part of that going for 15/8 on about 60% shooting over last 15-20 games.

    Benching him is going to accomplish nothing except frustration and killing of confidence.
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  9. #49
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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Is the goal to win or trade and tank?
    Nobody knows. That's the thing.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

  10. #50
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    JV is a few games into his 2nd year. If he's the player we all think he can/will be, his time will come. SO FAR (outside of summer league) he's done nothing to suggest he should be be getting special treatment. He needs to WORK HARD for his minutes and i think he will.
    That is the attitude to have when you draft a project like DD.

    When have you ever seen JV not work hard?

    I hate to tell you, it isn't special treatment, it is called developing talent... Just like they did for years with DeRozan. The difference of course is JV talent is off the charts and dd was always a project.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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  11. #51
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    Quote SitnonDfence wrote: View Post
    How quickly we forget what coddling a 7 foot tall lottery pick gets you.

    Frankly, JV isnt playing well and is most likely being held accountable. In three games where he should have been able to dominate inside, he was getting pushed off his spots much too easily by undersized MORE EXPERIENCED bigs. And this is before we take into consideration the matchup issues he provided on the other end of the floor. Considering he is supposed to be a mobile athletic big his close outs were pretty lax.

    If a big man wants touches in the post, hes got to earn them, carve out a spot on the low block, seal off your man and then if the wings look you off, you talk to coach who has probably already noticed whats going on.
    Bingo! I was thinking the same thing going over this thread.......JV has to earn his minutes. This means he has to do whatever the coach asks him to do. NO MORE spoiling/Coddling our young players. I truly believe that JV is simply not ready for this and coach is bringing him on slowly. WE ALL believe that JV will get where we need him to be (even coach Casey).

  12. #52
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    LOL. Directly or indirectly through the draft? Talk about broadening the scope. Save for very few cases, ALL players enter the NBA through the draft, so obviously every transaction will be directly or indirectly connected to the draft, no?
    That is some serious weasel language there. Lawyer or politician grade. LOL.
    I was thinking the exact same thing.... LMAO

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    JV is a few games into his 2nd year. If he's the player we all think he can/will be, his time will come. SO FAR (outside of summer league) he's done nothing to suggest he should be be getting special treatment.

  14. #54
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Kobe was actually drafted by the charlotte hornets and traded to the Lakers

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If this franchise is to go anywhere it is due to JVs growth.

    I call b.s. On being patient. For all those who were oohing and ahhhing about the end of season last year where Rudy and dd went ham and Raptors went 8-1, JV was a huge part of that going for 15/8 on about 60% shooting over last 15-20 games.

    Benching him is going to accomplish nothing except frustration and killing of confidence.
    Geez - Talk about putting it all on one kid. I don't see superstar anywhere (YET) when i look at JV. I see very good player, maybe even all-star, but so is Chandler/Noah/Lopez. To be honest, if we can fleece a team who thinks he's going to be some superstar, I would trade JV right now. I know that's blasphemy around these parts...lol BUT i still said it!

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  17. #56
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That is the attitude to have when you draft a project like DD.

    When have you ever seen JV not work hard?

    I hate to tell you, it isn't special treatment, it is called developing talent... Just like they did for years with DeRozan. The difference of course is JV talent is off the charts and dd was always a project.
    There you go again..... JV is getting the same treatment as Demar did!.....Or were you not around at those times? Demar would start but rarely finish games. Also, I fail to see this talent on display in the NBA? I don't see very many offensive moves from JV. I barely see an outside jumper every once in a while. Truthfully, I dont really see all that much at all. However, I love his motor and he seems to genuinely want to be a great player. In fact, I see a lot of similarities between JV and Demar.

    Not really sure what you mean when you say his talent is "off the charts"......I get nervous when i hear things like this because you used to say this about another 7 foot european.....*worried*

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  19. #57
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    HAhahaha.....so your gonna quote a stat that i used to show why we should be patient with this team and not blow it up?? You shit on Derozan but he's also in the line up. Dude be consistent....

    p.s.

    You still havent proven why he should be getting special treatment after few games into his second year in the NBA.

  20. #58
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    special1................PREACH son
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  21. #59
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    There you go again..... JV is getting the same treatment as Demar did!.....Or were you not around at those times? Demar would start but rarely finish games. Also, I fail to see this talent on display in the NBA? I don't see very many offensive moves from JV. I barely see an outside jumper every once in a while. Truthfully, I dont really see all that much at all. However, I love his motor and he seems to genuinely want to be a great player. In fact, I see a lot of similarities between JV and Demar.

    Not really sure what you mean when you say his talent is "off the charts"......I get nervous when i hear things like this because you used to say this about another 7 foot european.....*worried*
    Hardly. In DD's second year he was the 2nd option and his minutes went up 14 per game; JV is down 3 minutes per game. JV is in his second year on the bench for more than half the game. How did DD fair in summer league his second season? Did he win MVP?

    Last 20 games of the season JV averaged nearly 15/8 per game. He was a part of one of the top 5 man line ups of last season. He was the starting C as the team went on a winning streak down the stretch playing big minutes. I always thought those things mattered for those, like yourself, who advocate keeping this core together. The Raptors best ball of last season was played with JV on the floor.

    Your comments only further solidify my belief that Raptor fans have no idea how to develop true NBA talent. Years of having DD, ED, Sonny Weems, etc. hyped as real players have left you blind.

    Any comparison to Bargnani shows you're not more than a troll on this topic. He is European? So what. He is talented? Hell yeah. How many bigs shoot 80% from free throw line? People, myself included, were still waiting for Bargnani at 26 years of age; JV is 21. Bargnani was on life support, shied from contact floating on the perimeter, and was a zombie; JV has a motor, bangs, and is not emotionally detached from the game. JV as a rookie was .2 rebounds shy of Bargnani's career best in about 30% fewer minutes per game.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    LOL. Directly or indirectly through the draft? Talk about broadening the scope. Save for very few cases, ALL players enter the NBA through the draft, so obviously every transaction will be directly or indirectly connected to the draft, no?

    That is some serious weasel language there. Lawyer or politician grade. LOL.
    Fair enough.

    However the foundation of every single trade for an all-NBA player is draft picks and prospects.

    25% of All-NBA players are acquired via trade.

    65% of all-NBA players are drafted by their team.

    Broadening the scope was exactly the point. The original poster decided to make a point using top 3 picks from 1985 which was hardly revealing of the true situation when it comes to acquiring all-NBA talent that lead championship teams.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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