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Thread: Tim Leiweke and Wiggins

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Default Tim Leiweke and Wiggins

    I haven't thought THAt much about the tanking option until reading this article. It puts a different perspective on things than I have thought of. In particular this quote by tim, speaking at a luncheon meeting:

    '“Now, think about this for a second: We hadn’t been in the playoffs in forever, we weren’t in the playoffs this past year, and we had zero draft picks,” he told a crowd at a luncheon on Tuesday, pointing out that it was in a year when two Canadians were in the lottery. “That is hard to do. That is really good work, right there.”

    And if you were wondering why Bryan Colangelo lost his job.'

    Just from a strictly business point of view, Wiggins, assuming he pans out, could be a transcendent talent. That would really turn the Raps from a Toronto sports team into Canada's team, in a way that all the rhetoric and catch-phrases MLSE has been using.

    I think Tim is going to require Masia to Tank hard. The rumours about the Nash trade may be part of it. Steve is old, but still a talent. And if he can only play 45 games, then you have Augustin and Buycks running the show for at least 30 games. That puts you well on the way to a tank right there. At the same time you have someone who can give Jonas confidence by feeding him the ball properly for at least some games. Obviously Rudy would have to go and maybe DeMar, for younger, developing players and/or picks.

    Just thinking out loud, but that is a bitter comment from Leiweke.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    Its pretty much the best scenario i have read on here in a while Puffer. As is, Toronto is set to fail horribly anyhow, but not bad enough. Nash, would be a brilliant idea for the remaining guys, and for the first year of a potential superstars career (wiggans?)

    If that was in fact what was actually the plan, I like it, its properly laying down healthy foundations from which to grow. Steve Nash is likely a better coach than Casey as it is so he is really a big gain. TL knows he is wasted in LA with Kobe and his sidekick (MASSIVE EGO) running the show.

    Should be fun to see how it works out if it is indeed the path Toronto takes. I for one would LOVE watching Nash use JV properly.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star brothersteve's Avatar
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    That's a great plan for 3 more years in the lottery - we could just re-name the Raptors as the "Timberwolves ver. 2.0" and try to beat their current streak of 9 consecutive seasons in the lottery.

    If you think TV ratings are low now - blow up, tank, guarantee this team will be in the lottery in June this year and next. Grange wants to blow up the Raptors at the start and end of every season. Maybe there will be a TSN 3 set up to carry the games?
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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    thats complete bullshit steve. This franchise is already in the runnig for complete lottery attendance for the next 20 years, have been since its inception because no management has had the balls, or wherewithal to do a proper rebuild. I could care less what the average fan thinks, most people havent a clue whats happening on the court or off.

    You wanna win in toronto, you needs a superstar, since none will come here, you need to draft one. Toronto has what???? Gay and Lowry, buddies that are just not great players, one doesnt understand the game, the other is a nice guy but shoots at am almost sub 40 rate, and lets loose about 25 shots a game...... ya man, they are taking you far. You dont get it if you dont see how a complete rebukid means changing identity, culture, everything. Id prefer to see a team lose with a chance to grab a young mega star, than watch one limp into a first round destruction and guaranteed mediocity. Thats what trying to win now gets ya. Nothing.

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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    thats complete bullshit steve. This franchise is already in the runnig for complete lottery attendance for the next 20 years, have been since its inception because no management has had the balls, or wherewithal to do a proper rebuild. I could care less what the average fan thinks, most people havent a clue whats happening on the court or off.

    You wanna win in toronto, you needs a superstar, since none will come here, you need to draft one. Toronto has what???? Gay and Lowry, buddies that are just not great players, one doesnt understand the game, the other is a nice guy but shoots at am almost sub 40 rate, and lets loose about 25 shots a game...... ya man, they are taking you far. You dont get it if you dont see how a complete rebukid means changing identity, culture, everything. Id prefer to see a team lose with a chance to grab a young mega star, than watch one limp into a first round destruction and guaranteed mediocity. Thats what trying to win now gets ya. Nothing.
    I have been on the "rebuild by internal growth, smart drafting and trading" wagon for a while, but the quote from Leiweke about how BC completely blew the Raps chances of landing a significant Canadian talent in last years pick, and the impact it could have had on the business side just makes me think that he and Masai are angling for Wiggins and would do almost anything to get him.

    If they could land Wiggins, keep JV, Amir, Fields, and Hansbrough, they would have 4 solid starters and an energy big off the bench and only 20-25 million committed in salaries (numbers off the top of my head - not betting any money on them). That is the basis of a solid team if you are talking a tight rotation of 9 guys. Lots of room top fill the team out with other pieces.

    Hansbrough and Fields resurgence and effectiveness while on the floor, plus what I think might be Leieke's vision is what has moved me into the "tank now" camp.

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    Youre bang on Puffer, and so is TL. There is a massive significance for the Canadian basketball identity that they would angle for any chance possible to land Wiggans. It would be bar none, THE BIGGEST AND BEST possible thing to happen to the Raptors, bigger than VC. With the Allstar game in 2016, a young exciting team with the leagues next big thing hosting would be astronomical for the franchise. Other people think small, they think in Fantasy basketball league mode. Thats BS if you're actually trying to build a strong franchise, there are too many other variables.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I dunno, I read the quote a few times and all I got out of it was that it was a cute joke to poke fun at his predecessor and nothing more than that.
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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote brothersteve wrote: View Post
    That's a great plan for 3 more years in the lottery - we could just re-name the Raptors as the "Timberwolves ver. 2.0" and try to beat their current streak of 9 consecutive seasons in the lottery.

    If you think TV ratings are low now - blow up, tank, guarantee this team will be in the lottery in June this year and next. Grange wants to blow up the Raptors at the start and end of every season. Maybe there will be a TSN 3 set up to carry the games?
    You are trying to lump Toronto/Masai in with Minnesota/Khan?

    Really?
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    I've been saying for months that Leiweke is completely enamored with Wiggins. He's an executive who has always been driven by star power - just look at his history in Los Angeles. He didn't leave one of the best jobs in the business in Hollywood just to come to Toronto and try to replicate the '04 Pistons model.

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    And for this I am happy he is here. People reminisce about the glory days of Vince, yet out the other side of their mouths argue to the death about trying to keep a mediocre core together to MAYBE make round one of the playoffs. It makes little sense.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote brothersteve wrote: View Post
    That's a great plan for 3 more years in the lottery - we could just re-name the Raptors as the "Timberwolves ver. 2.0" and try to beat their current streak of 9 consecutive seasons in the lottery.

    If you think TV ratings are low now - blow up, tank, guarantee this team will be in the lottery in June this year and next. Grange wants to blow up the Raptors at the start and end of every season. Maybe there will be a TSN 3 set up to carry the games?
    The simple response : so instead lets rename the Raptors the Bucks?


    The more complex response: Why do we even care about the TV ratings for a team who is in no way shape or form in danger of moving? Why do we care if MLSE/Rogers/Bell/Raptors are even more profitable than they have been (and they have been one of the most profitable teams in the league).

    Am I somehow benifiting from this? If anything this has been, to date, to my detriment as a fan. I've watched this team aim for the playoffs in order to put more butts in the seats or eyes on the TV and the end result has been marginally better than tanking, but worse for the team overall (and arguably its ability to make $s at that) in the long run.

    I can tell you that right now I'd much rather be the Wolves than the Raptors. That Wolves team has a shot at home court if they were in the east - with some young studs in Rubio and Love. The Raptors are far from even being guaranteed the playoffs, whose future is currently wrapped up in the yet to be realized 'potential' of Jonas.

    Rename the Raptors the Wolves? Yes please, if it also means getting Wolves calibre players.

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    Quote brothersteve wrote: View Post
    That's a great plan for 3 more years in the lottery - we could just re-name the Raptors as the "Timberwolves ver. 2.0" and try to beat their current streak of 9 consecutive seasons in the lottery.

    If you think TV ratings are low now - blow up, tank, guarantee this team will be in the lottery in June this year and next. Grange wants to blow up the Raptors at the start and end of every season. Maybe there will be a TSN 3 set up to carry the games?
    The Raptors aren't really in a position to look down their nose at any other franchise. Sputtering in the back end of the lottery which the Raptors have done lately and have a good chance of continuing to do really isn't any more noble than sputtering in the top end of the lottery. At least when you're drafting in the top 7 or 8 picks you have a better chance of finding the transcendent talent you'll need to turn it around. I'd argue that the concept of tanking isn't what has held the Wolves back, it's the ineptitude of their management at the draft and otherwise.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Ok, so let's assume that Masai/Lieweke go down the tank path and completely blow up this roster. We have a high pick coming our way in 2014.

    What are the odds of Masai convincing some of the League's other bottom-feeders to also give up their picks? Think it's possible for us to go into the 2014 draft with up to 3 lotto picks, thus significantly increasing our chances of landing Wiggins?

    Aside: yes I know that there are plenty of other great players set to enter the draft. But let's keep the discussion focused on Wiggins for the time being.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    It would be an all time coup...a gamble that if it played out perfectly would make TL and UM look like geniuses...and if it failed...well, can it get worse anyhow??

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Ok, so let's assume that Masai/Lieweke go down the tank path and completely blow up this roster. We have a high pick coming our way in 2014.

    What are the odds of Masai convincing some of the League's other bottom-feeders to also give up their picks? Think it's possible for us to go into the 2014 draft with up to 3 lotto picks, thus significantly increasing our chances of landing Wiggins?

    Aside: yes I know that there are plenty of other great players set to enter the draft. But let's keep the discussion focused on Wiggins for the time being.
    0%

    I don't think it would be impossible (although very difficult) to add other lottery picks, but if Masai can get more they will likely be late lottery (ie. a team that thinks it can make the playoffs with 'one more peice')

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    0%

    I don't think it would be impossible (although very difficult) to add other lottery picks, but if Masai can get more they will likely be late lottery (ie. a team that thinks it can make the playoffs with 'one more peice')
    Although chances are slim, a bubble team like Detroit might be convinced to provide their pick in exchange for Gay (for example), the chemistry fails miserably or a season-ending injury happens, and their playoff goals turns into lotto reality.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Although chances are slim, a bubble team like Detroit might be convinced to provide their pick in exchange for Gay (for example), the chemistry fails miserably or a season-ending injury happens, and their playoff goals turns into lotto reality.
    and thats what I meant. But I just can't picture any bubble playoff team, making a trade for say Gay, and then missing the playoffs by such a margin it becomes a top pick. 10-14th pick, I can see.

    Just not a legitimate bottom feeder pick - those are gonna be locked up tighter than a bear trap.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    and thats what I meant. But I just can't picture any bubble playoff team, making a trade for say Gay, and then missing the playoffs by such a margin it becomes a top pick. 10-14th pick, I can see.

    Just not a legitimate bottom feeder pick - those are gonna be locked up tighter than a bear trap.
    True....and if a scenario like the above plays out, Detroit would probably try to win every game down the stretch (even if mathematically eliminated) just to avoid the heartache of giving up a top 3 pick to a conference rival.

    But then again, if there's one GM out there who has proven to accomplish the impossible, it's Ujiri
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    Quote Craig wrote: View Post
    It would be an all time coup...a gamble that if it played out perfectly would make TL and UM look like geniuses...and if it failed...well, can it get worse anyhow??
    And there are a number of other possible franchise changing talents in this draft

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    There are, and this is why i think it would be that much easier to get him

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