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Thread: Raptors cannot run a play

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    Raptors Republic Starter phez's Avatar
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    Default Raptors cannot run a play

    Has anyone else noticed the complete lack of, well, ANY offensive floor movement for the Raptors?

    The raptors offense literally consists of: Get the ball up the court, stand around, set a pick but never use it, stand around some more, pass the ball into iso, fail at beating your defender, chucking a shot with time expiring.

    At least with derozan he makes those iso shots.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star KazanTheMan's Avatar
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    It's pretty embarrassing actually. Casey is too one-dimensional a coach. If anything, demote him to defensive assistant or something. Our offence is truly ridiculous. You're best/most promising player (JV) posted up like 50 times today and never got the ball. The guy had 15 and 8 or something like that at half, and he doesn't see the floor again til 4 minutes left in the 4th. How do you believe that our offence is going to be better when you take away our only advantage? I'm just at a loss for words.
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    I read some good analysis on the Raptors offense on some guy on RealGM.

    "I've been reading a lot how Coach Casey runs an offense with no set plays in the half-court and that it's mostly Rudy Gay and DeMar DeRozan ISOs so what I decided to do was re-watch yesterday's game footage against the Bucks. While it's true the offense is dominated by isolation clear outs, but I don't think this has to do with Coach Casey rather Rudy's and DeMar's reliance to break away from the offense. But the times that Rudy and DeMar follow the game plan reversing the ball, penetrating against an unprepared defense as it's rotating, setting screens on the ball and away from the ball, or finding the open man on the perimeter the offense was pleasantly nice to watch. I'll try to upload more plays tomorrow morning once I finish watching the 2nd Half since it's late and I had practice earlier this morning and I'll try my best to update this thread with plays from Casey's playbook if you enough people are interested. Maybe some plays from other NBA teams as well.



    Opening possession for the Raptors they run "Horns" getting into it's basic alignment of the "A-Set". Lowry delivers a bounce pass to Amir then cuts high side wrapping around to set a back screen for Jonas. Jonas receives the screen and gets open in the lane catching the ball with a two foot land. Larry Sanders denies baseline and Jonas makes a simple drop step move to the middle for an easy left-handed hook.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2Ojhk-ewx8

    Again the Raptors run "Horns". Rudy comes up from the corner getting the pass from Lowry who shallow cuts to the weakside. After the shallow cut he gets back the ball while DeMar sets a back screen for Jonas setting him up for a lob. Lowry under throws the pass forcing Jonas to bring the ball down to gather himself resulting in Larry Sanders stripping him. Dead ball as it goes out of bounds, but this was a nice motion play designed to set up for a dunk.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiQsuFattqU

    Same play as above. The new wrinkle to this is that instead of DeMar setting a back screen for Jonas it's Rudy. The Bucks take away the lob since the Raptors try the play again the second time and a defensive player of Larry Sanders' caliber isn't going to get hit with a blind pick the second time. The play doesn't stop there as this now flows smoothly into a down screen for Rudy essentially a "screen the screener" action when the first option is taken away. From here Rudy has two options he can either pop the open 3-pointer from the top of the arc with his man hung up on the screen or he gets a ball screen from Amir like he does in the play.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhK0d90y3HE

    Not really a set play, but I thought this possession Rudy did an excellent job of setting up his man walking him down to the baseline. Notice how Butler's head is turned away from Rudy and focused on the ball? Good read by Rudy to change directions and he sprints off a double staggered. Butler tries to cheat the play by "jumping the gap" thinking Rudy will curl instead of locking and trailing. Like Stephen Curry when they see this they fade/flare to the wing-corner.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-odetSObiYI

    Ross get the dribble pitch or DHO and goes directly into a high pick-and-roll with Hansbrough. What this does is that it gives Ross a "live catch" meaning you can be more of an attacker putting pressure on the defense when you can catch and go. Ross makes the point to wing pass that goes into a side pick-and-roll with Jonas. The spacing on this play is terrific as you can see the "Triangle" or "3 Away" on the weakside formed by Hansbrough, Augustin and Ross with Augustin and Ross as release valves.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlTJBd-LzQ0

    This SLOB play might've been the best I saw. Ball is put in play by Fields who then gets a flex screen by Hansbrough who then sets a back screen for Ross to loop around. What's interesting about this play is that Ross has the option of rejecting Fields' screen and using Gray's down screen for the catch-and-shoot. But Neal overplays the screen eliminating that option. Fields' man, Giannis Antetokounmpo, is so occupied with Fields that he doesn't bother to switch. The Raptors run a horizontal stack for Ross coming off of the flare screen for a catch-and-shoot. If that's taken away Fields can curl off of a down screen from Gray."
    Again, this is not my work. I just thought I would share it with you all since it was a very well done analysis of the Raptors Bucks game. Props to this guy for the work.

    See it here: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/view...f=32&t=1281545

    Thoughts? Not entirely Casey's fault but rather Demar and Gay's fault for sticking to iso all the time?
    Last edited by Blacklash2k4; Wed Nov 6th, 2013 at 12:28 AM.

  4. #4
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    DD and Gay were a combine 0/11 on PnR offensive sets against the Heat. The Heat just bum rushed DD/Gay after the screen because not once did the pass it to the rolling big (well once, but the pass was a very tough catch when it needn't be) I also counted times that they took a good shot (ie if its open and miss, still a good shot), but no they instead to fade-aways in double teams or turned it over...that's 11 wasted possessions for the Raptors.

    For comparison, Ross was 2/2 on PnR's tonight, he sucked the second defender and made the easy play.

    To sum up I think that its DD and Gay that are stunting the offense. Another draw back is that our young guys are gonna be learning from guys who 'get theirs' rather than playing as a team and trusting your teammate.

  5. #5
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    It could be and is poor plays.

    But it is also a lack of a system.

    Watching the HEAT play offense really showed how high schoolish the Raptors really are.

    Their ball movement is a thing of beauty.... like that one play vs. Milwaukee the Raps had which will likely be the highlight of the year.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It could be and is poor plays.

    But it is also a lack of a system.

    Watching the HEAT play offense really showed how high schoolish the Raptors really are.

    Their ball movement is a thing of beauty.... like that one play vs. Milwaukee the Raps had which will likely be the highlight of the year.
    We cannot compare our offence to the Heat. They have play-makers at multiple positions. We have 0 play-makers. Casey can draw it up all he wants, if the players don't or are unable to execute, then it wont work.

    If we had a play making PG (like Marcus Smart) and a point forward (say Dario Saric at 13), we would be much more likely to execute.

  7. #7
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Very atrocious offense. think about it, Miami has Wade and James, both superior to Gay and DD, yet refuse to play a one on one
    ISO style offense. They move the ball so well and everyone gets involved. That was a winnable game last night, yet our wings reliance on playing for themselves is suffocating our offense and the rest of the team. I do not know how many times Demar could have passed the ball into JV off a PnR, but instead tried to shoot for himself or subsequently passed the ball to the side of the floor with all the defenders, while JV is in the post waving his hands for the ball, with only Haslem there waiting for him. Absolute insanity!! Very poor use of the screens, I expect more from Demar. And I do not know what kind of rotations Casey was using. Our starters were doing well working the ball in the paint early on, and then just got away from it all together. And JV basically misses most of the second half. The guy could have had 30 last night. I'm very confused...it's tough being a Raps fan with this type of nonsense going down game after game.

    There is little doubt in my mind right now that the only way this team will succeed is to move both Rudy and Demar. I'm thinking a lineup of JV, Amir, Fields, Ross, and Lowry would be more successful and better to watch than one with DD and RG.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Ambidextrious's Avatar
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    we need a frank vogel type of coach please but give casey a chance it was a tough loss..

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    We all make mistakes... Tanking is not the answer.. This squad can ball! Let it roll!!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    I still like Casey and think he is a good coach for this current Raptors team. However it's clear that he can't impose his principles on the personalities on this team.

    SVG is my first pick because he's worked with an elite big and knows how to build a team around the centre position. Karl would be my second pick because he's been known to challenge players to fights over disagreements, so you know he won't back down from a player. I would truly, truly love to see a coach rip into DeRozan and Gay for continuing to shoot those long jumpers instead of making the easy pass. They are full of themselves and selfish, and it's hurting the team imo.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote Ambidextrious wrote: View Post
    we need a frank vogel type of coach please but give casey a chance it was a tough loss..

    Sent from my SGH-T989D using Tapatalk
    It was a tough loss BECAUSE of Casey. We played awful without JV and we were still within 6 with 2 minutes left. Last night was a very winnable game.
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    Raptors Republic Starter Ambidextrious's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I still like Casey and think he is a good coach for this current Raptors team. However it's clear that he can't impose his principles on the personalities on this team.

    SVG is my first pick because he's worked with an elite big and knows how to build a team around the centre position. Karl would be my second pick because he's been known to challenge players to fights over disagreements, so you know he won't back down from a player. I would truly, truly love to see a coach rip into DeRozan and Gay for continuing to shoot those long jumpers instead of making the easy pass. They are full of themselves and selfish, and it's hurting the team imo.
    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    It was a tough loss BECAUSE of Casey. We played awful without JV and we were still within 6 with 2 minutes left. Last night was a very winnable game.
    yeah it was pretty stupid to sit Val for so long only 27 mins but you need to rest you players in back to backs
    We all make mistakes... Tanking is not the answer.. This squad can ball! Let it roll!!

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    The core problem is lack of talent. The secondary problem (related to the first problem) is too many similar players (in a broad sense), that are not very good at passing when they have the ball and/or playing without the ball.

    Every other issue with the offense pale in comparison to the first two issues.

    The only 'passer' on this team is Lowry, who also happens to be a bit reckless, and he's at his best when he sees the ball alot. But he can't see the ball alot with 2 iso heavy guys on the wings who need the ball to play their iso ball.

    What we see is the same Colangelo mish-mash attempt at team building. Any future 'organic growth' with current roster is going to have to come from players doing things they historically haven't done or not done well.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    We cannot compare our offence to the Heat. They have play-makers at multiple positions. We have 0 play-makers. Casey can draw it up all he wants, if the players don't or are unable to execute, then it wont work.

    If we had a play making PG (like Marcus Smart) and a point forward (say Dario Saric at 13), we would be much more likely to execute.
    Passing, spacing, and cutting is the basis of their offense. Those are basic fundamentals. LBJ and wade are much better than gay and dd yet they don't stop the ball on every possession

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Passing, spacing, and cutting is the basis of their offense. Those are basic fundamentals. LBJ and wade are much better than gay and dd yet they don't stop the ball on every possession
    Agreed that their offence is based on better principles, but having significant better and versatile players make it so much easier.

    Take a simple drive for example. With LeBron, that could mean an attempt at the rim for him, a dump pass for a teammate at the rim, a corner three (both strong and weak side) for a teammate, pass to a weak side cutter, a lob pass or a pull-up jumper. With Gay or DD, pull-up jumper or attempt at the rim. Play-makers make it so much easier. I think this is more of a talent deficit than a strategic shortfall.

    When you have better players, it is easier to implement an offence. The Raptors simply don't have players to execute a more complex offence. That doesn't even take into account the benefits of team continuity that is playing a familiar system vs a team still adjusting a new primary scorer (Gay).

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    I'm glad most people are with me in seeing that Demar and Rudy are absolutely DRAINING the offense.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    I'm glad most people are with me in seeing that Demar and Rudy are absolutely DRAINING the offense.
    Yeah, but deep down, we knew this would be the case before the season started. Both inefficient, ISO heavy players who aren't good passers and are the focal point of our entire attack.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Toronto has had the same problems since Bosh left: no playmakers, no one who commands doubles, no three point shooting.

    I don't care what kind of offense you design, you can't win in the NBA without any of those....

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    Raptors Republic Starter KeonClark's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Toronto has had the same problems since Bosh left: no playmakers, no one who commands doubles, no three point shooting.

    I don't care what kind of offense you design, you can't win in the NBA without any of those....
    Demar and Rudy both draw doubles, they just don't pass out of them...I believe I learned that in middle school basketball.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Toronto has had the same problems since Bosh left: no playmakers, no one who commands doubles, no three point shooting.

    I don't care what kind of offense you design, you can't win in the NBA without any of those....
    Hey remember the good old days (i.e. 3 weeks ago) when DeMar was carving up opponents in the post? Ahhhh, memories....
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote KeonClark wrote: View Post
    Demar and Rudy both draw doubles, they just don't pass out of them...I believe I learned that in middle school basketball.
    I'd love to see the number of doubles they draw. I really don't think they are many at all.

    If they drive they suck in the opposition, but any player doing that would see the same result (not really a 'double team' in my books)

    Teams have been playing the Raptors straight up for the better part of this last half decade.

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