Will Masai fire Casey ?

[Masai Ujiri]

DD can't mesh with Val because he can't run the PnR, and it isn't something that he is going to magically develop.

Actually he can run pick and roll, he's just not elite at it. And generally you want your point guard running the pick and roll anyway (Lowry isn't good at it). Tbh I'd prefer for DeRozan to not really have the ball in his hands that often unless he's already in scoring position (cut to the rim, post up, corner 3, dunk, etc). He's much more effective that way. Problem is we can't do that right now because he's the only consistent scorer on the team.

DD has never been able to play off a post player by way of the two man game either. He even has trouble doing post entries.

Which dominant post player have we ever had for you to confirm this? Bosh is the closest, and DD played just fine off Bosh his rookie season.

Val isn't a fantastic rim protector, so we need good wing defenders to help him out...does that sound like DD?

DD's defense is fine. If Val needs help protecting the rim we can get a rim-protecting power forward as we rebuild. It's not like DD is a defensive liability and spends the whole game watching his man blow by him. Actually tbh from what I've seen defensively (there may be stats to disprove or prove this, not sure), most of the points DD gives up seem to be on jumpers. Which Val wouldn't really be involved with anyway.

Now maybe I'm completely wrong, so why do you think that DD and Val have skill sets that can compliment each other?

Neither Val nor DD are franchise players, and I certainly hope neither of them is our best player going forwards or we aren't winning squat. I think both of them have skillsets that can be used in the starting lineup of a championship contender. Val is energetic, rebounds well, runs the pick & roll very effectively and can also score in the low post. DeRozan is among the best guards in the league on the block while also being an excellent slasher with the newly ability to spread the floor with the corner 3. Additionally, unlike most 3+D SGs, if you close out on DeRozan he can kill you going to the rim or hitting you with an upfake and pulling up for an easy mid-range jumper.

That being said I don't see how DeRozan's game prevents Val from being successful. In order to get the most out of Valanciunas on the offensive end, we need a point guard that's very effective at running the pick and roll. To get the most out of him on defense, if he can't mature into a great rim protector, then we need a power forward who can. For DeRozan to be most successful, he needs to be the 2nd or 3rd option on offense, playing more off-ball and less isolation. In order for that to happen we need to bring in a player who scores the basketball at an elite level (preferably at the 1 or 3, fortunately this draft is stacked at both those spots).

I don't see what's wrong with a team like this going forwards:

PG: Double-Double, two-way PG that can run pick&roll
SG: DeMar DeRozan
SF: Elite scorer/all-around player, amongst one of the best players in the league (Franchise Talent)
PF: Rim protector, walking double-double
C: Jonas Valanciunas

I like the sound of that.

[OldSkoolCool]

Actually he can run pick and roll, he's just not elite at it. And generally you want your point guard running the pick and roll anyway (Lowry isn't good at it). Tbh I'd prefer for DeRozan to not really have the ball in his hands that often unless he's already in scoring position (cut to the rim, post up, corner 3, dunk, etc). He's much more effective that way. Problem is we can't do that right now because he's the only consistent scorer on the team.



Which dominant post player have we ever had for you to confirm this? Bosh is the closest, and DD played just fine off Bosh his rookie season.



DD's defense is fine. If Val needs help protecting the rim we can get a rim-protecting power forward as we rebuild. It's not like DD is a defensive liability and spends the whole game watching his man blow by him. Actually tbh from what I've seen defensively (there may be stats to disprove or prove this, not sure), most of the points DD gives up seem to be on jumpers. Which Val wouldn't really be involved with anyway.



Neither Val nor DD are franchise players, and I certainly hope neither of them is our best player going forwards or we aren't winning squat. I think both of them have skillsets that can be used in the starting lineup of a championship contender. Val is energetic, rebounds well, runs the pick & roll very effectively and can also score in the low post. DeRozan is among the best guards in the league on the block while also being an excellent slasher with the newly ability to spread the floor with the corner 3. Additionally, unlike most 3+D SGs, if you close out on DeRozan he can kill you going to the rim or hitting you with an upfake and pulling up for an easy mid-range jumper.

That being said I don't see how DeRozan's game prevents Val from being successful. In order to get the most out of Valanciunas on the offensive end, we need a point guard that's very effective at running the pick and roll. To get the most out of him on defense, if he can't mature into a great rim protector, then we need a power forward who can. For DeRozan to be most successful, he needs to be the 2nd or 3rd option on offense, playing more off-ball and less isolation. In order for that to happen we need to bring in a player who scores the basketball at an elite level (preferably at the 1 or 3, fortunately this draft is stacked at both those spots).

I don't see what's wrong with a team like this going forwards:

PG: Double-Double, two-way PG that can run pick&roll
SG: DeMar DeRozan
SF: Elite scorer/all-around player, amongst one of the best players in the league (Franchise Talent)
PF: Rim protector, walking double-double
C: Jonas Valanciunas

I like the sound of that.

Bold 1: You're right he can, by dribbling into 2 defenders and forcing a tough shot. Plain fact is, he isn't and will never be a good PnR player

Bold 2: DD did not run the 2 man game with Bosh, he instead stood in the opposite corner and was the recipient of easy drives of the rotating D. He has never even tried a 2 man game with any Raptor, no matter their skill level, so I doubt he develops it now.

Bold 3: His defense is not fine, not if we are to compete. In the playoffs he will get exposed hard

Bold 4: I present to you the 2013/14 Toronto Raptors, where DD has had the ball in his hands more and Val has taken a massive step backwards in his development. I'd say that's "preventing him from being successful"

The rest: How do you propose we get those three assets you speak of, at PG, SF and Pf? We only have one high pick...if we traded DD we may get one of those pieces as a player and one as a pick...just saying. Also from that lineup DD would likely be the 4th or 5th option...in which case I would rather have a spot up 3pt shooter who is excellent defensively (because that would be the player that compliments the rest of that lineup)

[Masai Ujiri]

Bold 1: You're right he can, by dribbling into 2 defenders and forcing a tough shot. Plain fact is, he isn't and will never be a good PnR player

Yep because that's exactly what DD does off of every screen.

Bold 2: DD did not run the 2 man game with Bosh, he instead stood in the opposite corner and was the recipient of easy drives of the rotating D. He has never even tried a 2 man game with any Raptor, no matter their skill level, so I doubt he develops it now.

Didn't say anything about a 2 man game. I said he played fine off Bosh, taking advantage of doubles and open driving lanes. Considering how much larger his skillset is now, if we actually had a good team he could thrive in a similar situation.

Bold 3: His defense is not fine, not if we are to compete. In the playoffs he will get exposed hard

Actually his defense is perfectly fine. I already mentioned a number of championship level shooting guards who are/were no better than DeMar on the defensive end (Manu, Ray Allen, Rip, JET, etc).

Bold 4: I present to you the 2013/14 Toronto Raptors, where DD has had the ball in his hands more and Val has taken a massive step backwards in his development. I'd say that's "preventing him from being successful"

DD has the ball in his hands more because this team is not well coached on the offensive end. A competent coach would be running less iso, and running more sets that involved moving the ball, feeding the bigs and looking for open shots. It's not DD preventing Val from being successful, it's Casey's approach to the offensive side of the ball. DD has proven to be both a willing and capable passer. You institute an offense that enforces ball-movement, and you'll see that happen.

The rest: How do you propose we get those three assets you speak of, at PG, SF and Pf? We only have one high pick...if we traded DD we may get one of those pieces as a player and one as a pick...just saying. Also from that lineup DD would likely be the 4th or 5th option...in which case I would rather have a spot up 3pt shooter who is excellent defensively (because that would be the player that compliments the rest of that lineup)

We can acquire those assets through trade, the draft and free agency. And no, DD would be the 2nd or 3rd option in that lineup.

[OldSkoolCool]

Yep because that's exactly what DD does off of every screen.

Actually I'm not far off on that...don't know what you've been watching

Didn't say anything about a 2 man game. I said he played fine off Bosh, taking advantage of doubles and open driving lanes. Considering how much larger his skillset is now, if we actually had a good team he could thrive in a similar situation.

I say he can't play 2 man game...you said he played well with bosh...I said that wasn't 2 man game and described exactly what you responded with..then said that the player that I would rather have sitting in that opposite corner would be a 3 and D role player, not a 9.5 million "building block"

Actually his defense is perfectly fine. I already mentioned a number of championship level shooting guards who are/were no better than DeMar on the defensive end (Manu, Ray Allen, Rip, JET, etc).

His defense is crap. Not going to argue it any further, someone should teach you the fundamentals of playing D.

DD has the ball in his hands more because this team is not well coached on the offensive end. A competent coach would be running less iso, and running more sets that involved moving the ball, feeding the bigs and looking for open shots. It's not DD preventing Val from being successful, it's Casey's approach to the offensive side of the ball. DD has proven to be both a willing and capable passer. You institute an offense that enforces ball-movement, and you'll see that happen.

DD has the ball in his hands more. If he was good at using his bigs/PnR/willing passer then Val would be thriving. Instead Val is struggling the more DD has the ball. Casey has been preaching passing, but the players still don't pass to the bigs...who is that on? I stand by that DD makes Val worse and have actually game footage to back it up. You have no evidence to support your claim

We can acquire those assets through trade, the draft and free agency. And no, DD would be the 2nd or 3rd option in that lineup.

Who are we going to trade? Gay doesn't have much value, and Lowry is only going to get us so much. DD is our best asset to bring those in...and he also has no mesh with any of our bigs...see firs few points

In that lineup you outlined the PG and SF will be dominant ball handlers with the PF and C being strong PnR options. The best player to compliment those 4 players is a 3pt specialist with strong D. Who will therefor be a 4/5 option (with the PF). Who has strong D. Who is a deadly 3pt shooter. Who is a 4/5 option. Who has strong D. Who is a deadly 3 pt shooter.

Again. With a lineup featuring a drive and kick PG and a point forward SF that are paired with PnR bigs need shooters at the SG position who would 4/5 options, but are deadly 3pt shooters. I would also demand that they bring tough D, to go along with that 3pt shot, because that what would compliment that PG and SF the most. Not some iso hungry mid-range jump shooting, poor ball handler/passer/defender/rebounder. I don't know how many more ways I can say this

I guess if you think having a drive and kick PG (say Lowry), a ball dominant SG (say DD), and a SF who will have the ball alot (someone better than Rudy) then I guess this Raptors team is one player away from being a .600 team eh? Things look good with what you're smoking

[Puffer]

...DD has the ball in his hands more. If he was good at using his bigs/PnR/willing passer then Val would be thriving. Instead Val is struggling the more DD has the ball. Casey has been preaching passing, but the players still don't pass to the bigs...who is that on?...

Actually, if you watch what happens when DD gets the ball, JV moves away from the basket. I believe this is what he has been told to do...what the coach has the team practice on their off days. Caseys offensive sets are defective. I don't believe he is using JV effectively, for whatever reason. That's not on JV or on DD. That's on Casey.

[OldSkoolCool]

JV rolls and sometime he just fades a bit and is wide open, neither case he gets the ball. Those are the cases I'm talking about. And DD doesn't pass, who's that on?

[peanutwoozle]

DD can't mesh with Val because he can't run the PnR, and it isn't something that he is going to magically develop.

DD has never been able to play off a post player by way of the two man game either. He even has trouble doing post entries.

Val isn't a fantastic rim protector, so we need good wing defenders to help him out...does that sound like DD?

Now maybe I'm completely wrong, so why do you think that DD and Val have skill sets that can compliment each other?

maybe that's what we need

[Puffer]

JV rolls and sometime he just fades a bit and is wide open, neither case he gets the ball. Those are the cases I'm talking about. And DD doesn't pass, who's that on?

As I said, they may be following Casey's instructions. I don't know...but I play basketball and I want the team to win...so I do stuff to help the team win. If I have a coach that says "this is how to handle this specific situation" then I listen to the coach. There are no stupid basketball players on the Raptors team...not at this level.

[golden]

You have no idea if this is true. You have no idea if the front office is dictating playing time so they can 'evaluate' further. You have no idea if there are already trades in the works or being discussed that are driving some of the rotations.

I have no idea, either. But I suspect that Ujiri has seen enough by now to have his 'way forward' settled, if not made public, and if that's the case, I'd be very surprised if Casey wasn't a) in on it, and b) being told, to some degree at least, how to handle this roster of players, a healthy chunk of whom will most likely not be here past the trade deadline, and certainly not by next October.

Do you really think Masai prefers Rudy to be stinking it up now, and allowing that to completely destroy his trade value? And is it really possible that Casey is so completely inept at coaching offense as to be actually creating a gameplan that calls for Gay to be hogging the ball, killing any offensive flow and then jacking up one contested low percentage shot after another? I don't have direct recordings of conversations, but even Masai is on record saying he doesn't like the way they are playing, and pretty much pointing the finger at iso-ball. So either way, it looks bad on Casey, because around the league Gay was considered a very good player, if not borderline all-star, before he came to Toronto. If you don't believe me, just take a look at the RR threads when the Gay-to-Toronto rumours first surfaced last year. In Toronto, Gay's market value has plummeted, which is even worse considering he's the highest player on the team, which should normally be your best trade asset, and is turning into an albatross - all under Casey's watch.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/tea...p/archive/2014

“One concerning thing to me is we might be 30th in the league in assists,” Masai Ujiri said. “That concerns me a little bit. I think we need to be able to move the ball – share the ball. I think to be a winning team – (we have to) figure out how to play with each other. I think chemistry is a key in team sports. We have good individual players and we just have to figure out a way to bring it all together. Chemistry does not come overnight – So (as) a period of time that comes around that is something I look at because when you look at winning teams, they share the ball and get each other involved.

[OldSkoolCool]

As I said, they may be following Casey's instructions. I don't know...but I play basketball and I want the team to win...so I do stuff to help the team win. If I have a coach that says "this is how to handle this specific situation" then I listen to the coach. There are no stupid basketball players on the Raptors team...not at this level.

On the same note...no smart basketball player in the world doesn't pass to a wide open PnR big even if the coach tells them to. They will pass it to the big guy if they want to get easy buckets and win. Simple. As. That.

The fact that DD is almost incapable of it is mind boggling...considering he is in the NBA

[psrs1]

On the same note...no smart basketball player in the world doesn't pass to a wide open PnR big even if the coach tells them to. They will pass it to the big guy if they want to get easy buckets and win. Simple. As. That.

The fact that DD is almost incapable of it is mind boggling...considering he is in the NBA

DD and Casey are not the smartest people in the world.