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  • #31
    OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Assists =/= Ball movement

    Just a reminder, ball movement leads to easy open shots, which will have the same assist rate as a single player running the play Jose-style and getting assists.

    Saying that assists do not correlate to winning basketball is ignorant to say the least. Remember that stats, for all its uses, has its limits.
    Never claimed it did. OP referenced the 29th place assist ranking. I simply pointed out that it was entirely irrelevant.

    We can have a discussion all we like about lack of ball movement, but that 29th of 30 stat (the actual title of the thread) is meaningless.
    twitter.com/dhackett1565

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    • #32
      joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
      As many have stated, I miss the old Lowry.
      I think you mean " I miss when Lowry had good shooters around him and a good offensive system to flourish in"

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      • #33
        Mediumcore wrote: View Post
        Now that isn't to say that they shouldn't get the ball, but what I mean is he needs to create plays for them as opposed to giving it to them and asking them to create
        GOD, the most boring ball I've seen in years. Running around then dishes to a stagnant offence and forcing shots because they can't create their own. I used to be a big Lowry and Gay defender but this team - along with Casey is unwatchable on offence. Tonight's game against Indiana means the team may not even break 80 at this point.
        “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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        • #34
          As an aside: James Harden was screaming bloody murder at Jeremy Lin last night in the Houston/Lakers game. There appears to be tension.

          If Jeremy Lin is gettable, Toronto should work to get him.

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          • #35
            magoon wrote: View Post
            As an aside: James Harden was screaming bloody murder at Jeremy Lin last night in the Houston/Lakers game. There appears to be tension.

            If Jeremy Lin is gettable, Toronto should work to get him.
            No.

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            • #36
              rocwell wrote: View Post
              No.
              you're right, I forgot this is Toronto, we don't actually want good players

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              • #37
                magoon wrote: View Post
                you're right, I forgot this is Toronto, we don't actually want good players
                If people thought that Calderon was bad on defence, Lin might actually be worse. He's OK.
                “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                • #38
                  DanH wrote: View Post
                  Never claimed it did. OP referenced the 29th place assist ranking. I simply pointed out that it was entirely irrelevant.

                  We can have a discussion all we like about lack of ball movement, but that 29th of 30 stat (the actual title of the thread) is meaningless.
                  LOL, well then thanks for your contribution to the thread, it's been entirely constructive

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                  • #39
                    Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                    If people thought that Calderon was bad on defence, Lin might actually be worse. He's OK.
                    Can we get a show of hands as to who would, if they were able, go back in time and make sure that we just kept Jose as our starting PG? oh look pretty much everybody

                    But more to the point, Lin isn't worse than Jose on D - he's got more of the tools to be an effective defender than Jose ever did already. (Jose never had the lateral quickness to be a really great defender; Lin does.) Lin's an effective playmaker (especially when he's playing alongside Landry Fields, the two of them are crazily synergistic) and scoring threat. He can run the pick-n-roll, which would make Jonas and Amir even more deadly.

                    Lin is already quite good, has a lot of potential, and if we can get him without overspending - and if Houston starts to fracture I think that's possible - then I think we should.

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                    • #40
                      magoon wrote: View Post
                      Can we get a show of hands as to who would, if they were able, go back in time and make sure that we just kept Jose as our starting PG? oh look pretty much everybody

                      But more to the point, Lin isn't worse than Jose on D - he's got more of the tools to be an effective defender than Jose ever did already. (Jose never had the lateral quickness to be a really great defender; Lin does.) Lin's an effective playmaker (especially when he's playing alongside Landry Fields, the two of them are crazily synergistic) and scoring threat. He can run the pick-n-roll, which would make Jonas and Amir even more deadly.

                      Lin is already quite good, has a lot of potential, and if we can get him without overspending - and if Houston starts to fracture I think that's possible - then I think we should.
                      The only way I could see that happening is if a deal went down after Dec.15, along these lines:

                      To Toronto - Lin
                      To Houston - Novak & Gray & Augustin/Buycks & future 2nd round pick

                      Novak would give Houston another 3pt threat, while Gray would provide C depth (important if Asik winds up being traded). Plus, all but Novak are expiring.


                      I think Houston would have to be quite desperate to move Lin for that type of deal to work. I wouldn't be surprised if Houston could get a better deal elsewhere. I'm also not entirely sure I'd even want Lin on the Raptors, especially not with his contract.

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                      • #41
                        magoon wrote: View Post
                        Can we get a show of hands as to who would, if they were able, go back in time and make sure that we just kept Jose as our starting PG? oh look pretty much everybody

                        But more to the point, Lin isn't worse than Jose on D - he's got more of the tools to be an effective defender than Jose ever did already. (Jose never had the lateral quickness to be a really great defender; Lin does.) Lin's an effective playmaker (especially when he's playing alongside Landry Fields, the two of them are crazily synergistic) and scoring threat. He can run the pick-n-roll, which would make Jonas and Amir even more deadly.

                        Lin is already quite good, has a lot of potential, and if we can get him without overspending - and if Houston starts to fracture I think that's possible - then I think we should.
                        I'm not going to question the bolded because I think its true.... but I've always found it curious how much of an impact Bargnani had on Jose's perceived D. Not to many PGs get stuck with their big man not providing any help what so ever, so when they get beat the plethora of easy buckets just aren't there.

                        Small sample warning - so far Jose's DRTG (according to NBA.com) above his historic norms. We'll see what happens as the season plays out, but this is something we've seen with all Raptors players. They are soooo much better defensively just by removing Bargnani from the equation (even if its relative).

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                        • #42
                          Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                          LOL, well then thanks for your contribution to the thread, it's been entirely constructive
                          I try. Just saying, nothing to get worked up about.
                          twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                          • #43
                            magoon wrote: View Post
                            Can we get a show of hands as to who would, if they were able, go back in time and make sure that we just kept Jose as our starting PG? oh look pretty much everybody

                            But more to the point, Lin isn't worse than Jose on D - he's got more of the tools to be an effective defender than Jose ever did already. (Jose never had the lateral quickness to be a really great defender; Lin does.) Lin's an effective playmaker (especially when he's playing alongside Landry Fields, the two of them are crazily synergistic) and scoring threat. He can run the pick-n-roll, which would make Jonas and Amir even more deadly.

                            Lin is already quite good, has a lot of potential, and if we can get him without overspending - and if Houston starts to fracture I think that's possible - then I think we should.
                            Not me. Jose's a great guy and I like his ball movement, control of the offense, and shooting - BUT - he's not that good. Dallas picked him up as part of Plan D or Plan H (I lost track) and, even with former MVP Dirk Nowitzki, the report on them is that *maybe* they can make a bottom seed in the playoffs this year. Jose is not taking that team to the next level, he was never going to take the Raps to the next level, and I wouldn't want him to be here with the contract the Mavs gave him.

                            Option C: move on from Jose, Lowry (it looks like we should move on, but we'll see), and any Jeremy Lin-calibre nonsense. Your're just treading water with players like that. The Raptors need a talent infusion of a much, much higher caliber than Jeremy Lin or Jose Calderon. The impact of switching Lowry out for either of those two would be negligible.
                            "We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard

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                            • #44
                              A point guard that can create for others can work for this team.. but I don't like this team at all.. it has serious flaws. Instead of looking at the PG to help get this team to the playoffs, we should be dismantling the team and getting pieces that make more sense. We need a coach that can create a system that can be successful. We need players that fit that system, and then constantly move pieces in and out that turn that system into a contender.

                              This team has not been put together properly. Bryan was really bad at what he did (well at least in Toronto). It's time to blow this baby up properly and then slowly create a team that can succeed for many years. If that requires more losing before winning I'm okay with that, as long as the 'winning' part last longer than one season is not just a first round exit in the playoffs.

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                              • #45
                                planetmars wrote: View Post
                                A point guard that can create for others can work for this team.. but I don't like this team at all.. it has serious flaws. Instead of looking at the PG to help get this team to the playoffs, we should be dismantling the team and getting pieces that make more sense. We need a coach that can create a system that can be successful. We need players that fit that system, and then constantly move pieces in and out that turn that system into a contender.

                                This team has not been put together properly. Bryan was really bad at what he did (well at least in Toronto). It's time to blow this baby up properly and then slowly create a team that can succeed for many years. If that requires more losing before winning I'm okay with that, as long as the 'winning' part last longer than one season is not just a first round exit in the playoffs.
                                I don't disagree, but you'll note the reasons I think Lin works have nothing to do with the flawed pieces (Rudy, Lowry) but rather the guys we agree should stay (Jonas, Amir, maybe Landry).

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