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Thread: Stop that tankin sh*t mentality

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    Raptors Republic All-Star charlesnba23's Avatar
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    Default Stop that tankin sh*t mentality

    I'm on this forum because I want to share my opinion with other real Raptors fans and because I like to see the point of view of other real Raptors fans. Delete this thread if you want but I just wanted to say that I'm really getting tired of always reading these same pessimist things, about tanking, about Casey sucks, DeMar sucks, Rudy sucks, AB sucked then in NY he's good (plus he's not, at all) etc.

    Let's put this all together: THIS TEAM IS NOT TANKING, I CAN TELL YOU THIS.

    Sincerely,

    from a real Raptors fan, who, just like any other true sport fan, would like his team to win.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    What is a real fan, anyways? That one makes me giggle but I digress.

    However this is an appropriate quote for this thread, I believe:

    ē Meanwhile, other teams expected to fare poorly have done just fine at the start. The Sixers are one. The Boston Celtics, Phoenix Suns, Orlando Magic and Los Angeles Lakers without Kobe Bryant are several more.

    ē Read: Maybe we should think twice about accusing teams of tanking and respect that guys at this level always play hard. If you're good enough to make it to the NBA, you're good enough to not want to lose.

    http://www.foxsportsohio.com/story/a...23&feedID=3725
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    Raptors Republic All-Star charlesnba23's Avatar
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    Matt, you are one of the guys in here that I think are the most respected, and you can include me in the category of those who respect you. But yeah, I'm totally against this tanking mentality, and what you just posted is just great, too.

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    For what it's worth, Bargnani ISN'T terribly better. He's about hitting his 2007-2008 level where he shot forty percent from the field reliably, which still makes him massively overpaid and not a good player.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    I'm against tanking either. If they lose they lose. But i want to see them win.
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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
    Matt, you are one of the guys in here that I think are the most respected, and you can include me in the category of those who respect you. But yeah, I'm totally against this tanking mentality, and what you just posted is just great, too.
    Thanks for kind words.

    There is nothing wrong with opposing the tanking mentality - nothing at all. Players and coaches should never tank. Management on the other hand...... Fans, in my opinion, can cheer for whatever they want. In the end all fans can agree they want a contender or winner; the only disagreement is how to go about getting there.

    Sometimes though even the best laid plans get messed up. It is still early but teams supposedly tanking are competing (except for Utah!). Will it continue? We'll find out.

    The other thing to consider is that what if Toronto ends up sending out one, two, or three of Gay/Lowry/DeRozan and the pieces coming back make the Raptors better immediately? Looking at it from a analytical/statistical perspective, it likely wouldn't be impossible. Looking at Ujiri's previous work, it likely wouldn't be a reach either as the Nuggets got better after the Melo trade - granted that took 2 teams fighting over the player to bid up the value.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star consmap's Avatar
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    Whether people want to tank or not, we're all Raptors fans and we all just want to see the team do well. Everyone just has different opinions on how we should go about with it.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Niagara Raptor's Avatar
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    my brain says tank because bottom line we are not winning with this team period, there are a lot of changes that need to be made and why not tank for wiggins and even if we don't get him, this draft I think is 6-8 deep not counting who surprises people in the ncaa this season so its a good year to tank of all years

    but my raptor heart just wants them to win every time they play no matter who they play so it can be tough

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    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
    from a real Raptors fan, who, just like any other true sport fan, would like his team to win.
    I think we're all real Raptors fans here, and we all want to see the team win. It's just a matter of how we want them to start winning. Stay the course and have a chance at winning in the short term? Or tank and have a chance at winning in the long run?
    Twitter - @thekid_it

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    Raptors Republic All-Star charlesnba23's Avatar
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    Quote isaacthompson wrote: View Post
    I think we're all real Raptors fans here, and we all want to see the team win. It's just a matter of how we want them to start winning. Stay the course and have a chance at winning in the short term? Or tank and have a chance at winning in the long run?
    Thing is, IMO, trying to win short term doesn't necessarily means that we won't win in the long run. To me, JV can really be the guy we build around. To me, whether we trade him or not, DeMar is a really good piece to this team. To me, both of our PF can be important pieces on a winning team. To me, Lowry can definitely be a starting caliber point guard on a winning team, even though a lot of point guards would do a better job than him running our team. To me, Ross is a highflying young player with a lot of potential at the 2 spot. Landry Fields, say what you want about his shooting stroke and his contract, he's a winner. Acy, he's a winner. Novak played a role on a playoff team + great shooter. Augustin don't play well so far, but remember what he was doing just a couple years ago in Charlotte; give him some time. Buycks could be a primary backup PG in the NBA. Stone, from what I saw, can definitely play. Daye can to. Gray would play on the Miami Heat. Not a joke right here.

    Looking at it this way, I just think we have (Masai have) all the tools to build a winning team, in the long run, without tanking. Don't forget all the draft picks we have. Free agency. Trades. But please, please Masai. Not tanking.

    *EDIT* LOL I forgot Rudy. Well, borderline all star, 27 years of age, will find his game. I'm not saying we should not trade him. I'm not saying we should neither.
    Last edited by charlesnba23; Mon Nov 11th, 2013 at 01:27 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
    Thing is, IMO, trying to win short term doesn't necessarily means that we won't win in the long run. To me, JV can really be the guy we build around. To me, whether we trade him or not, DeMar is a really good piece to this team. To me, both of our PF can be important pieces on a winning team. To me, Lowry can definitely be a starting caliber point guard on a winning team, even though a lot of point guards would do a better job than him running our team. To me, Ross is a highflying young player with a lot of potential at the 2 spot. Landry Fields, say what you want about his shooting stroke and his contract, he's a winner. Acy, he's a winner. Novak played a role on a playoff team + great shooter. Augustin don't play well so far, but remember what he was doing just a couple years ago in Charlotte; give him some time. Buycks could be a primary backup PG in the NBA. Stone, from what I saw, can definitely play. Daye can to. Gray would play on the Miami Heat. Not a joke right here.

    Looking at it this way, I just think we have (Masai have) all the tools to build a winning team, in the long run, without tanking. Don't forget all the draft picks we have. Free agency. Trades. But please, please Masai. Not tanking.

    *EDIT* LOL I forgot Rudy. Well, borderline all star, 27 years of age, will find his game. I'm not saying we should not trade him. I'm not saying we should neither.
    Agreed with everything you said except the Lowry part. I don't think he's a starting caliber PG in this league. Maybe on a bad team but definitely not on a winning team.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
    Let's put this all together: THIS TEAM IS NOT TANKING, I CAN TELL YOU THIS.
    I don't know how you can say that, with any sort of confidence, based on what has been coming out of TL and MU soundbytes. What info do you have access to that I don't?

    Quote charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
    ... DeMar is a really good piece to this team. To me, both of our PF can be important pieces on a winning team. To me, Lowry can definitely be a starting caliber point guard on a winning team, even though a lot of point guards would do a better job than him running our team. To me, Ross is a highflying young player with a lot of potential at the 2 spot. Landry Fields, say what you want about his shooting stroke and his contract, he's a winner. Acy, he's a winner. Novak played a role on a playoff team + great shooter. Augustin don't play well so far, but remember what he was doing just a couple years ago in Charlotte; give him some time. Buycks could be a primary backup PG in the NBA. Stone, from what I saw, can definitely play. Daye can to. Gray would play on the Miami Heat. Not a joke right here.

    Looking at it this way, I just think we have (Masai have) all the tools to build a winning team, in the long run, without tanking. Don't forget all the draft picks we have. Free agency. Trades. But please, please Masai. Not tanking.

    *EDIT* LOL I forgot Rudy. Well, borderline all star, 27 years of age, will find his game. I'm not saying we should not trade him. I'm not saying we should neither.
    Isn't that what BC said to TL when he was trying to keep his job? Isn't TL on record saying that one of the main reasons he didn't keep BC on is that they disagreed about how highly BC valued his players?

    I agree that all the players you mentioned could be a part of a winning team, but the definition of winning would have to be going 42-40. I can't see this team winning more than 50 games under any scenario, and when was the last time a team won a NBA championship without winning more than 50 regular season games?

    Despite my newly changed avatar, my views on tanking (which is that it's a meaningless dichotomy) is well documented on this site. Basically, IMO what you need is management that maximizes the value of your players. I've also been on record that Derozan's contract is going to become a value contract at some point, but at the end of the day the raptors can't compete for a championship this season, and probably not in the next 3-4 years unless we get a super-duper start, an All-NBA 1st teamer. How is that going to happen? I'm not committed to tanking one way or another, but I think you're crazy if you don't think that this is something that Ujiri is pondering over during his "wait-and-see" period he is currently under.

    If Ujiri could pull of a mid season trade that would give us a squad that could go toe to toe with the heat, pacers, bulls, or nets, then I'd be all for it, even if it only meant a tightly contested second round loss. But what is more likely, pulling off such a trade or series of trades, or pulling off trades that make just a little be worse than we are now. I mean it's not like we've demonstrated that we belong in playoff discussions, at this point anyway. And sure, we'll put together a couple of nice stretches of wins that WILL put/keep us in that list of six teams fighting for 2-3 spots at the bottom of the eastern conference, but is that enough for you? Because it is definitely not enough for me.


    Do you remember watching the Raptors play Philly in the second round? I do, it was AWESOME. I think 20 years is PLENTY long enough to wait for the Raps to get into the conference finals. I've waited long enough. If you're happy with waiting another 5-10-15 years for a conference finals appearance, then good on ya'. But don't try to tell me that I'm not a real fan because my definition of success is 50+ wins in 5 years or less.

    The main problem with the "doom and gloomers" on this page, isn't that pessimists. It's that they're right.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    ...when was the last time a team won a NBA championship without winning more than 50 regular season games?
    So I thought go back and answer my own question.

    The 1994-1995 Houston Rockets won the Championship after going 47-35 in the regular season. Just for a little context they were the defending champion (58-24 in the previous season), and this was also during MJ's faux retirement.

    BUT winning a championship is crazy hard, so let's pull back a bit and change winning it all, to getting to the conference finals.

    The last time a team made it to the Conference Finals was last year's Pacers who had 49 wins (3rd in conference behind the Heat and Knicks). Before that you have to go back to the 2002-2003 New Jersey Nets, who made it to the finals with a regular season record of 49-33, the second best record in the conference behind the 50-32 Pistons (this was the era when the "Leastern Conference" was born.

    In both last year's Pacer's and the 94 rockets had the benefit of missing a major player (Rocket's never had to beat MJ) last year's Pacers didn't have to face the D Rose Bulls.

    So yeah, out of the last 10 (not counting the lockout) seasons, there have been 38 out of the 40 conference finalist who had 50+ wins during the regular season, and 2 who had 49 wins. So yeah, it's pretty difficult to argue that your team is a "contender" if you can't win more than 50 games in the regular season. EDIT: Even winning 50+ games isn't a guarantee that you'll make the Conference Finals either. Just based on the quick research I did, there's plenty of times a 50+ win team didn't make the conference finals, since there is often more than 5 teams in a conference with 50+ wins. If anyone else wants to go back through the records feel free. I used basketball-reference



    So yeah, get me a team that can win at least 50 games in the regular season, or GTFO, that's directed at Raptor's management, not any particular posters here.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Mon Nov 11th, 2013 at 07:48 AM.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Raptors Republic All-Star KazanTheMan's Avatar
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    I love the team so much, that's why I want the best for them. A "real" fan should be able to realize this team is mediocre. I'm still going to cheer for them, but that doesn't make me blind to fact.
    Last edited by KazanTheMan; Mon Nov 11th, 2013 at 10:55 AM.
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Nothing better than quoting one of the delusional front-page writers who predicted that this team was a #6 seed this year! That is the sort of solid homerism that makes you hirable for RR.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    Nothing better than quoting one of the delusional front-page writers who predicted that this team was a #6 seed this year! That is the sort of solid homerism that makes you hirable for RR.
    The way things stand in the eastern conference you going to say that we don't have just as much of a chance at 6th seed as Wizards, Cavs, Pistons, Hawks?
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    The way things stand in the eastern conference you going to say that we don't have just as much of a chance at 6th seed as Wizards, Cavs, Pistons, Hawks?
    The Wiz had a bad start and most of their losses have been competitive with the exception of their drubbing by the Heat (see yesterday's one-point loss to the Thunder). The Cavs have had a terrible start because Bynum isn't the answer they hoped for at C and Bennett has had a god-awful start and hasn't helped their giant hole at SF, but the Cavs have so many draft picks to trade that they will be able to rectify their issues quickly: if we don't trade them Rudy, then Boston will trade them Jeff Green or Utah will trade them Gordon Hayward, because Cleveland is ready to start chasing playoffs and they have the means to do it. Detroit is problematic but less problematic than we are. Atlanta is playing like a .500 team right now.

    Bluntly: the Raps are playing very, very badly indeed. With the exception of the Utah game, every Raps game, win or loss, has featured ugly, inefficient, inelegant, ineffective basketball; our wins have only come about when we play truly awful teams. This isn't a recipe for playoffs as a rule, and if we manage to luck into it by other teams sucking even worse than we do, we'll get a first-round exit pretty much guaranteed - and a first-round exit isn't going to do shit for us in terms of developing a team, because nobody respects the eighth seed.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    The way things stand in the eastern conference you going to say that we don't have just as much of a chance at 6th seed as Wizards, Cavs, Pistons, Hawks?
    The 6th seed, and getting dusted by Miami (the current 3rd seed) in the 1st round?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    The Wiz had a bad start and most of their losses have been competitive with the exception of their drubbing by the Heat (see yesterday's one-point loss to the Thunder). The Cavs have had a terrible start because Bynum isn't the answer they hoped for at C and Bennett has had a god-awful start and hasn't helped their giant hole at SF, but the Cavs have so many draft picks to trade that they will be able to rectify their issues quickly: if we don't trade them Rudy, then Boston will trade them Jeff Green or Utah will trade them Gordon Hayward, because Cleveland is ready to start chasing playoffs and they have the means to do it. Detroit is problematic but less problematic than we are. Atlanta is playing like a .500 team right now.

    Bluntly: the Raps are playing very, very badly indeed. With the exception of the Utah game, every Raps game, win or loss, has featured ugly, inefficient, inelegant, ineffective basketball; our wins have only come about when we play truly awful teams. This isn't a recipe for playoffs as a rule, and if we manage to luck into it by other teams sucking even worse than we do, we'll get a first-round exit pretty much guaranteed - and a first-round exit isn't going to do shit for us in terms of developing a team, because nobody respects the eighth seed.
    Yup, we could very easily be sitting with a 1-6 record right now. The wins vs. Boston and Milwaukee were fairly ugly games. The offense still looks disjointed (Rudy and DeMar have yet to play well together), defense can't seem to get timely stops, and the rotation is still as muddy as training camp.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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